Appendix 6 : Selected Excerpts From Hearing Testimony - Part 9

Leaks Kerry 09/24/92

...as Chairman, I feel very, very strongly that I do not want this Committee's efforts to be sullied by personal agenda, or by people who want to be reckless with partial facts.

Leaks Kissinger 09/22/92

Mr. Chairman, this is the record. Yet leaks from this inquiry have been suggesting: That those who had refused to abandon America's Vietnamese allies, supposedly abandoned American prisoners; that those who struggled to husband the leverage necessary to bring about the release of American prisoners were insufficiently attentive to the fates of remaining MIAs; and that those who were prepared to use force to compel Hanoi's compliance were guilty of not doing enough to enforce the agreements.

Leaks Smith 09/24/92

After reading the column and communicating with Senator Kerry, I wondered whether I was at the same meeting.

Left Behind - Shields Statement Kerry 09/24/92

Lieutenant Commander Vincent D. Monroe, downed in Ne On Province, North Vietnam, May 18th, 1968. Emergency radio signals were received from Lieutenant Commander Monroe and his crew member, whose status as a prisoner has been acknowledged by North Vietnam. Radio Hanoi announced the capture of two pilots at the time and the place of Lieutenant Commander Monroe's loss. Now you called him a prisoner. They acknowledged his as a prisoner. You stood up and said he was a prisoner. He did not come home, and then you say there are no indications anybody is alive.

Left Behind Sieverts continued 06/25/92

against their will in captivity -- the lengths they would go, one way or another, to let us know of this. It bears on the photographs, for example. The idea of Americans cheerfully being photographed and not using that opportunity to somehow convey who they are and what the circumstances are is beyond my imagination.

Lists Kerry 09/21/92

Getting the list before the agreement...the idea would be compare the lists and make some detailed man- by-man attempt to determine whether or not their list tracked with our list. That was not done...it was agreed in 1971 that it would not be done. And all of the testimony that we heard earlier from Secretary Laird saying I was at Henry all the time trying to get him to make sure it did not happen, that deal was cut in 1971. There was no effort, apparently, from the meeting in 1972, no effort to say to the North Vietnamese, this is unacceptable. It was accepted as a condition because it had been prenegotiated in 1971.

Lists Kissinger 09/22/92

Chairman Kerry: Your response to that was, we could exchange lists of the prisoners that we hold and then start exchanging prisoners and not haggle about who is or is not a prisoner. Kissinger: So this phrase of not haggling was -- had only to do with the technical problem. Do we present our list first and wait, or do we see what they give us and then complain about it.

Chairman Kerry: ...in effect, you moved the haggling. Instead of haggling name for name before the signing, you left yourself haggling name for name until 20 years later and we are haggling name for name today.

Kissinger: Senator, we would have been delighted to get their lists before the signing. That was something that they were never prepared to do, and we, therefore, had to make the best arrangement possible.

Lists Laird 09/21/92

Chairman Kerry: It was your gut feeling that the lists were not complete, is that what you are saying?

Laird: It was my gut feeling that there were more. When I left, I think that we felt at that time -- I think the last figures that we had were that the list of POWs probably would contain quite a few more names than that. We were disappointed with the list because I hoped that there would be more on the list.

Lists Laird 09/21/92

We weren't -- by the way, I wasn't being critical of the Kennedy list or the Cora Weiss list. We were glad to get that information, but it was not complete information and we knew of the existence of other POWs when those lists were delivered to us...?

Lists Laird 09/21/92

We were not getting much information from the Vietnamese at that particular time. The Vietnamese, of course, made the Kennedy list, the North Vietnamese. The source of that list was the North Vietnamese and the Cora Weiss list was also from the North Vietnamese. And they were confirmations of POWs.

Lists Laird 09/21/92

We had several lists given to us. There was the early list that was given by Cora Weiss, which I think you are familiar with, who was a peace activist. Then the Kennedy list came, and there was a discrepancy between the Cora Weiss list and the Kennedy list. It was about five difference in those two lists. I felt that those lists were inadequate. We had firm letter confirmations of at least 26 or 27 people that we knew of confirmed by letters that were alive at that particular time.

Lists Lord 09/21/92

Chairman Kerry: ...It appears to me... that we had agreed on the 16th of August 1971 that there was only, in regard to POW, going to be an exchange of lists at the moment that we all signed the agreements. And the question that I have got is were you aware that the Secretary of Defense and others in the defense agencies were arguing that we should get a preliminary release, and if so, why was it not more forcefully presented at this meeting?

Lord: ...we did whittle down our positions, no question about it. I didn't recall the precise date and meeting until I read this document. As I say, I do not recall others pressing us to get the lists ahead of time, but it would be a natural objective that you would to have certainly be better than getting it the day of the agreement.

Lists Mooney 01/22/92

My testimony, sir, is that I had a list of Americans who were captured alive in enemy hands with our knowledge of the specific units of those enemies down to battalion, division or regiment, or up to division or higher than division, and that the last information was that they were alive and well in enemy hands... there were approximately 305 on the list. At Homecoming I, about five percent of those were returned. That brought the list down to about 293, 294. Now, what I have recovered of the names that were on that original list is approximately 140 or maybe 120 names...

Lists Mooney 01/22/92

...looking back on it... we should have known better, and maybe if we would have pushed a little harder when we had the power and authority, we might have been able to do something. But in '73, we should have at least insisted on getting that original list of 15 or 16 names up in print, which we had flagged kiddingly as the Kissinger list.

Lists Mooney 01/22/92

. . . the political requirements of the Vietnamese were higher than the tactical and strategic. They wanted warm bodies to jack up the numbers to appease Kissinger.

Lists Mooney 01/22/92

My boss... told me to my face... that if you're going to put it on a list, we want to be able to sign it, and we want to be able for the policy-makers to be able to do something with it. So keep it tight... If I hadn't kept it tight, per his instruction, my list could probably have been another 60 to 70 names.

Lists Shields 06/25/92

Another significant list is the one passed by the DRV to representatives of the U.S. Government in Paris in January, 1973 as required by the Paris Peace Accords.

Lists Shields 06/25/92

This list was not accepted by us as a complete accounting for those held prisoner or for those who died in captivity. First, that list did not include the names of those prisoners missing in Laos. It also omitted the names of men we knew to have been in captivity at one time.

Lists Shields 06/25/92

We knew immediately upon receiving this list of those said to have died in captivity, that men whom we knew had, at one time, been alive and in captivity were omitted from the list altogether. After briefing those who returned, we knew also that the names of some men who may have died in captivity were also not on the lists.

Lists Smith 09/24/92

for several weeks before the signing of the accords in January of 1973, General Eugene Tighe...was asked by the Joint Chiefs to make a list of American POWs that we could reasonably expect to be repatriated both from Laos and Vietnam. The list contained some 900 to 1,000 names yet...

Lists Tighe 06/24/92

I certainly remember the shock and sadness at the paucity of the lists of names we received versus what we expected.

Lists Walters 09/21/92

Sen. Grassley: General Walters, do you ever recall it being discussed that we should exchange lists prior to the signing of any agreement?

Walters: Yes, I believe there was a discussion to that... But it seems to me that was discussed and they, of course, knew this is one of the principal leverages they had with us. They knew that our desire to get those prisoners of war back was inordinate compared to theirs... but what I suspected is that they wouldn't have carried out the agreement and my suspicions were not totally ill-founded.

Live Americans Andrews 10/15/92

I acknowledge that there have been isolated reports POWs being held in some areas in Laos, including Sam Neua. But after giving these reports, most of which come from refugee sources, a full and complete evaluation, the Department has been unable to develop convincing evidence that U.S. POWs are being held in Sam Neua today, nor do we have any evidence that they were being held there in 1988.

Live Americans Armitage 08/12/92

I think what I'd say is I believe there are Americans in Indochina.

Live Sighting Bell 12/04/92

Bell: Sir, could I make one point on the underground facility there?

Chairman Kerry: Yes, sir.

Bell: The Bai Nim Conference Hall sits across from the Mausoleum as you know from being there. And they have the meetings there of the Politburo and the Central Committee. Also the Party Congress is held there. And you have high level dignitaries there. They would have to have some type of underground facility in the area to contain all of those people in the event of an emergency...

Live Americans Brooks 12/01/92

...I found no compelling evidence of alive POWs held in the official prison system of the North Vietnamese... I was persuaded that there was, indeed, compelling evidence that in 1973... to cause me to believe that there probably were people alive in 1973 in Laos.

Live Americans Cawthorne 11/07/91

I think if one looks at the evidence, piece by piece, one doesn't get anywhere. You don't see the wood for the trees... it's a seamless, carpet of evidence that comes from during the war and beyond.

Live Americans Chagnon 10/15/92

Chairman Kerry: At any rate, in your years, no one has ever come to you with a secret key and offered or whispered to you that up here there are some Americans. You have never hear that. Nobody has ever --

Chagnon: Only the incidents that Roger [Rumpf] mentioned in Vientiane, which were very much second-hand stories and which we turned over all information to the U.S. Embassy. And those did not prove to be valid.

Live Americans Childress 08/12/92

...I believe there's a possibility of Americans in Southeast Asia in some category that is not defined.

Live Americans Christmas 06/25/92

Sen. Reid: Do any of you know of any American servicemen in Southeast Asia, like Garwood, who are still there?

Sheetz: I do not. And when I met with Vietnamese officials last summer I asked the same question, as does Vessey, as does Christmas, and I'll let him speak for himself.

Christmas: I have no personal knowledge, sir, that we have any there.

Sen. Reid: You have no personal knowledge. Do you have any reports, any hearsay information that they are there?

Christmas: Sir, we have live- sighting reports that we continue to pursue. But we have, at this time, no sufficient information to say that we have a live American in Vietnam or anyplace.

However, and I would be the first to tell you this, we don't have sufficient information yet to say that there isn't, and that's why we will pursue any continue to pursue these live-sighting investigations, the last known discrepancy cases, and through our efforts expand throughout those three countries.

Live Americans Christmas 06/25/92

Vice Chairman Smith: ... with the job that you have to do and the importance of the job that you have to do, it seems to me to be somewhat like going to a baseball player and saying now, Smith, you are going out and you are going to play first base -- which I used to do -- and you will be batting third. Now Smith goes out and plays first base. He does not bring his glove because he is not going to get any ground balls and he does not take his bat up to the plate because he is not going to get a pitch...

I think the fact that there are live- sighting reports out there, whether you believe them or not, but the fact that they are there indicates that they have to be pursued...

Christmas: It does not mean that I don't believe that live-sighting report, and we pursue each and every one of those live-sighting reports. Unfortunately, all of them to this point in time have shown that -- at this time, we have not been able to determine that there have been live Americans.

Live Americans Christmas 11/05/91

If we find out the location of Captain Carr or anybody else, there is no doubt in my mind ...we'll go get him. If he can't get out, we'll go get him.

Live Americans Christmas 12/04/92

I would echo that, sir. I would also state, however, that as you've indicated, Senator, we pursue every lead. We do not leave any stone unturned, and we have in position the operational plans to recover Americans if, in fact, we should find one.

Live Americans DeStatte, Deeter, Bell 12/04/92

Chairman Kerry: Mr. Gadoury, as to Laos. Do you currently operate with any intelligence or evaluation that suggests to you that someone is alive? Is there any credible evidence that says so?

Gadoury: Not that I have seen, sir.

Chairman Kerry: As to Indochina?

DeStatte: That's correct, sir.

Chairman Kerry: And you say no.

DeStatte: No.

Chairman Kerry: Mr. Deeter, Sergeant Deeter?

Deeter: No, sir.

Chairman Kerry: Mr. Bell?

Bell: No, sir.

Live Americans DeStatte 08/05/92

We shouldn't forget that those 300- plus sources who accurately described Robert Garwood, encounters with Robert Garwood there, also said that they had no knowledge, personal or hearsay, of any other Americans living or being detained in that area, and if these folks were acknowledged reporting accurate on that, why should we question their accuracy on the other?

Live Americans Gadoury 10/15/92

After eight years of searching neither I, nor... personnel from various other military units... have found proof that any of our missing survived after the prisoner release from Hanoi in 1973.

Yet, as long as the possibility exists that there could have been or could still be, we must continue the search.

Live Americans Grassley 06/24/92

Evidence exists, and the next time that someone in the Administration says that there in no evidence that we left people behind, it is clear that he or she is not reading the same documents that the members of this Committee and our respective staffs are reading.

Live Americans Jensen- Stevenson 11/07/91

There is an amazing amount of credible evidence, [that Americans are alive in Southeast Asia].

Live Americans Kerry 06/25/92

The evidence, to me, is still as likely that there might be fraud as that there is evidence of a prisoner.

Live Americans Kingston 06/25/92

The JCRC work did not include investigating the possibility that live Americans remaining in captivity against their will in Southeast Asia after Operation Homecoming.

Live Americans Kissinger 09/22/92

. . why they would hold prisoners that they don't acknowledge, for that I have great difficulty understanding it.

Live Americans Kissinger 09/22/92

I think it's improbable that any are alive today. I honestly did not think there were any alive in Vietnam when the war ended. I have always kept open the possibility in my mind that there were some -- that there were some in Laos.

Live Americans Larson 12/04/92

Mr. Chairman, I have seen no piece of evidence at this point that would indicate anyone is alive from any of our researches, investigations, surveys, or any of the data that we have available.

Live Americans Larson 12/04/92

Admiral Larson: ...in this last year, we have resolved 143 live-sighting cases.

Chairman Kerry: Has any one of those live sighting cases given an indication of either a live American, or that there was a live American there?

Larson: No, sir...

Live Americans Maguire 08/04/92

We conclude with the following assessment. After years of post-war searching, thousands of reports evaluated, and every available means of intelligence collection employed, no single report or combination of reports has ever been able to confirm that American prisoners of war remained in captivity after Operation Homecoming in 1973.

Live Americans Needham 12/04/92

Sir, I agree. I would add, it is our number 1 mission, looking for live sightings in support of the DIA effort. We react to every single one of them.

Live Americans Rumpf/ Chagnon 10/15/92

Chairman Kerry: ...what do you believe is the possibility that somebody is being held?

Mr. Rumpf: ...if they were living as local people were living, life would be very difficult...A 10-year period would be very difficult.

Chairman Kerry: Do you agree with that, Ms. Chagnon?

Ms. Chagnon: Yes...

Live Americans Rumpf 10/15/92

Mr. Rumpf: I talked to a very few people about the issue of live POWs being held by the Government. And in each occasion people said there were no Americans being held in Laos. But it was not an issue that came up regularly. People did not raise the issue until late in our stay there in 1989 and '90 when people started coming to our house in Vientiane claiming they had tapes, fingerprints, bringing us sometimes those kinds of materials, expecting some money in return. And that's the only time people really came up to us.

Chairman Kerry: Did they ask you for money, specifically?

Mr. Rumpf: Yeah, it was implied in the discussion that they expected something from it. We only said we'd take it and give it to the U.S. Embassy.

Live Americans Schiff 08/04/92

...the U.S. Government position is, while there is no information to confirm that Americans are still detained in Southeast Asia, the possibility cannot be ruled out. Because the U.S. Government cannot rule out the possibility, the Department of Defense continues to aggressively investigate this issue...

Live Americans Schlatter 12/01/92

Sir, the evidence that I saw over, again, the period of time I worked in the office leads me to two conclusions. I think the evidence supports the contention that if you were an American prisoner of war and you were alive in the spring of 1973, the time of Operation Homecoming, you came home. The second conclusion I have to reach is that only the Vietnamese know for sure.

Live Americans Schlesinger 09/21/92

I believe those prospects would be very slim, Mr. Chairman, as of now. But it's conceivable that one or two may have survived. One or two, or a handful.

Live Americans Schweitzer 12/04/92

Chairman Kerry: But we do have people come to people. I mean, we have the reports. We have got them laid out. These guys spend hours analyzing them. They go through them. You are aware of that, correct?

Schweitzer: Yes, and that has to be done. That is a valuable process, and for the American people that must be done. And it is the work of the analysts and the investigators, and it is a valuable process that must be gone through. And I do not in any way want to detract from the dedication and the hard work all of these men do.

Chairman Kerry: Well, what makes you come to that judgment? What is sort of the basis of your judgment nobody is alive?

Schweitzer: Well, I have never seen any evidence or heard any evidence that anyone is alive in Vietnam.

Live Americans Schweitzer 12/04/92

Chairman Kerry: ...you are speaking from archival experience, and a reality base that a lot of people do not have. ... you have drawn a conclusion here that is pretty solid in your mind, and you have laid it out to the committee that you think this concept of focus on live people is a waste of time, in your estimation.

What gives you this basis that you draw this notion that nobody is alive? Is that a fair statement of your notion? You think this concept of anybody being alive is wrong, is that correct?

Schweitzer: Sir, I've seen no evidence that there are live Americans in Vietnam.

Live Americans Sheetz 08/04/92

Chairman Kerry: Do you interpret any of the live-sighting reports that you have in front of you today as evidence that an American is alive inside Southeast Asia today?

Mr. Sheetz: That kind of clear-cut statement I cannot make, and I don't think there's a Member on this committee who can make such a statement. We have 110 reports. It was 109 when I last briefed you and there's been a new one come in. We have 110 reports right now that are in active inventory, and as we go into the areas where those 110 reports are located, we take a look at other reporting that's in that same geographic area.

Until we run those to ground, I can't tell you. That's not a cop-out. I cannot tell you...

Live Americans Smith

I might say in some respectful disagreement with the Chairman, there is information and evidence before the Committee on specific individuals. The question is, is that information valid, and that is what we are trying to determine.

Live Americans Smith 10/15/92

In view of the information put forward at our September hearings that we had expected more POWs/MIAs to come home in 1973, it is incumbent upon the Committee to treat the information before us today, I believe, with the assumption that American pilots from the war could still be alive and held against their will somewhere in communist hands in Laos and Vietnam.

Live Americans Sydow 08/05/92

Chairman Kerry: ...Out of those several thousand, apart from Bob Garwood and apart from the Caucasians who were not American POWs, are there reports in which you place credibility of American POWs being held?

Mr. Sydow: No sir. There is no evidence of POWs being held in this system.

Live Americans Sydow, Sheetz, Cole 12/04/92

Chairman Kerry: Now, let me ask each of you the relevant question as to your countries or areas. Mr. Sydow, Laos.

Sydow: No, sir, Vietnam.

Chairman Kerry: Just Vietnam. Do you have any credible evidence today, which you are operating on or working with, that someone is alive in Vietnam, a prisoner?

Sydow: No, sir.

Chairman Kerry: Mr. Sheetz?

Sheetz: No, sir.

Chairman Kerry: Colonel Cole?

Cole: No, sir.

Live Americans Tin 11/07/91

About this issue, I can say that I know as well as any top leader in Vietnam and, in my opinion, I state categorically that there is not any American prisoner alive in Vietnam.

Live Americans Vessey 12/04/92

It is almost beyond the realm of comprehension for me to figure out how the Vietnamese leadership can say after X number of years that they have no one and then say now we do and we'll do it for X million or billion or whatever it happens to be.

Live Americans Vessey 12/04/92

Now, I will tell you that based on what we've learned over the five years I've been involved, I think the probability of anyone being alive is far lower than I would have given that probability five years ago. But I'm not going to say I don't believe there's not anyone alive. I think the probability is very, very low, but certainly it exists. The probability exists.

Live Americans -Offers Vessey 06/25/92

Sen. McCain: You have never heard of any offer on the part of anyone in authority in Vietnam to return Americans in return for money or assistance?

Vessey: Absolutely not. In fact, just the contrary. The Vietnamese officials with whom I've dealt have said we cannot so it, whatever you were to offer. We cannot do it because we do not have any [Americans].

Live-Sighting Reports Bell 12/04/92

Vice Chairman Smith: Are you not talking about the area around the Mausoleum, Mr. Bell?

Bell: I'm talking about the Bai Nim Conference Hall, right across the street from the Mausoleum, sir.

Chairman Kerry: It is actually about 500 yards away, is it not? It is not right across the street. There is a huge expanse.

Live-Sighting Reports Bell 12/04/92

The two morticians or technical specialists that the ambassador referred to, I believe in early last year was reduced down to one person. He resided in the house across from the Mausoleum on the corner of Chuma Ho Street next to the compound of the Soviet GRU.

In May of 1991, this gentleman was soaked with gasoline on the streets of Hanoi and burned to death. And the only facility or information about that facility that I have heard was that it was built on the same order of Lenin's Tomb and there is an elevator that goes down one floor beneath the mausoleum. And the advisors that came there, they used the same plan to construct Ho Chi Minh's mausoleum.

Concerning any tunnels in the citadel area or the military compound, previous reporting indicates that there was or probably still is a tunnel which went from Cua Dum Street under Ly Nam De and inside of the Ly Nam De compound. And this tunnel was constructed back during the French era.

Live-Sighting Reports Chambers 12/04/92

Chairman Kerry: OK. How many of these are firsthand up here? How many of those flags are first-hand [reports]?... what you have is 920 -- 928 minus about 200 that you say are fabrications. That leaves you 728. You have 225 that are first-hand, leaving you with about 500 that are hearsay. 225 firsthand.

Chambers: And the hearsay is probably where the heart of this issue is at. And the reason that there is what we find is a problem with this is that in addition to the use of --

Chairman Kerry: 700 hearsay total. OK, go ahead.

Chambers: -- Some basic geographic flaws in the map where some of the reports were plotted in the wrong area, and I think we went through this in closed session and again in open session earlier.

There's a misunderstanding about the nature and the use of hearsay reporting. Hearsay reporting goes from accurate renditions of what actually happened that someone told their brother or their sister and they repeated and it's very accurate to something that you heard, someone else said it to someone, and by the time it is repeated to one of the investigators you can't figure out what it is that they were really talking about. And it's marketplace trivia that people pass back and forth amongst themselves.

Live-Sighting Reports DeStatte 12/04/92

There's one other point that I'd like to bring out. In the statement released here on the 1st December, there was a quote of the Russian ambassador, and I quote from that one December statement: "We have also heard from the Russian ambassador that there is a restricted underground area beneath the Ho Chi Minh Mausoleum."

This quotation is taken out of its original context. The original context was a partial transcript of a briefing by Russian ambassador Rashid Camadolin to two journalists in Hanoi on 15 August, 1992. The following is an accurate text of the ambassador's statement in context:

"There is an underground area beneath the mausoleum. It is restricted. There is a lot of equipment, a cooling device. When we built that, we put in a triple generator system in case of an electricity black-out."

Now, the ambassador also stated that Russian experts helped build the Mausoleum, and that two Russian experts are at the Mausoleum at the request of the Vietnamese Government to preserve the body of Ho Chi Minh. He said these Russian experts would have known if any U.S. POWs were detained at the Mausoleum.

The ambassador said he's never heard of any prisoners at the Mausoleum. In fact, he scoffed at the idea that anyone could imagine Vietnam could hold prisoners here. He said he has spoken with many Americans about this subject, and he noted, and I quote, "those who are serious, who are not playing politics, who are not playing on the emotions of the families, they know these stories are not true..."