|
Appendix 6 : Selected Excerpts From Hearing Testimony - Part 7
Families (Carr Collins) 12/03/92
Vice Chairman Smith: Did you ever see or hear of any live-sighting reports on your husband?
Collins: Never, but I know that there are some now.
Vice Chairman Smith: There are some, and I don't know anything about the validity of them, so I don't mean to, you know, mislead you in that regard, but there are live-sighting reports, and you have not seen those. These are during the war.
Collins: During that time, no, I did not. I saw some in 1991. I was sent them from Hawaii.
Vice Chairman Smith: There is a live-sighting report, one that I know of. This is during the war, not after, in which he was allegedly captured in Laos by North Vietnamese regulars.
Again, I think this -- I bring this up because it's another example of the problem and the reason why the committee's here, and the reason why sometimes information that -- if this information were put out in the public domain, the opportunity for fraud would be less, I believe, because you could simply go to the documents, but when the documents are held secret and kept in secret files for reasons other than national security, in my opinion, that -- therein, you know, lies the problem.
If your husband was the subject of a live-sighting report, you should have been told that, and you were not, and yet, even today, if you bring the witnesses up here tomorrow, they'll say -- the Government witnesses, they'll say, well the families are provided all information. Here's an example right here. You have not.
Families Bardsley 11/06/91
...I feel like in my five days in Vietnam that I found out more about my father's case than I've learned from the Government in 25 years.
Families Carr Collins 12/03/92
...you become obsessed. You cannot sleep, eat, work, because you would waltz with the devil to bring one man home.
Sen. McCain: There is no possible way that I can express the sympathy that I and the people of this country feel for what you have been subjected to. I can only tell you that we will continue to honor Donald Carr's memory and appreciate his service and sacrifice to this Nation and to the cause of freedom.
Families Carr Collins 12/03/92
After the analysis had come out from Los Alamos and Dr. Charney I began to doubt my own view of the picture, which was there was a slight possibility there could be Don. I mean I just -- I did not know. But something that my son said to me sort of turned me around. He said mother, that picture is obviously an American. I mean he looks like an American to me. He said he's somebody's father, he's somebody's brother, husband, cousin. He said if there's a chance in a billion that it's my dad, I've got to do something.
So with that, that's when I started.
Families Collins 12/03/92
I, as an MIA wife, was frustrated by knowing little, being left out of the loop, and it seemed at times being treated as the enemy, more feared by the administration and military intelligence than the North Vietnamese whom we should have been unified against.
This was typical of the attitude of the government in those years.
Families Collins 12/03/92
Most of us have been tempted at some point to participate in some form of POW rescue based on nothing more than questionable and circumstantial information at best, such as unverified photos, live sightings, and anonymous reports. If it sounds hooky and mystic, it probably is, and it almost always plays a very cruel hoax on the families by raising false hopes...
I am very pleased to know this committee will take up these issues and problems in the near future, and hope this will eliminate once and for all the con artists, and clear the way for those who are credible and knowledgeable to resolve the long standing tragedy of our MIAs.
The closed-door attitude of the government, which stared and became ingrained in the early war years, has contributed greatly to making the families vulnerable and prey for the antiwar activists on the left and the con artists and mystics on the right. If the government was silent to their questions, then where were they to go for information and help? Some elements of both groups meant well, but their impact has been cruel to the families.
Families Collins 12/03/92
Had they brought us into the loop, telling us the things that we had a right to know from the onset, we would never find ourselves in this position today.
Had they trusted us, brought us in the loop, talked to us, told us these things and said, hey, we need -- we are going to tell you this, but this is for family only. See, what they did was, they said you don't need to know this. Now, you know, if you were to let this out, this could cause his death. Now, you wouldn't want to do that, would you? I love that old hang that guilt trip on them.
Families Collins 12/03/92
...the old military cliche that wives and families should be told nothing and should know nothing was, and I presume to some degree is still the rule. This is an overreaction to legitimate military security needs, and has probably resulted in more inadvertent leaks through ignorance than if the spouses and families had been brought into the network in matters that concerned them.
Families Collins 12/03/92
I hope that never again will families of the missing will have to literally take to the street. This is an additional burden on them in this time of grief and hardship which should not be necessary. The MIA families have had to keep up this effort even until today.
Families Flecken- stein 11/06/91
...that isn't all of it either, because when I was looking to get fingerprints, I went to the Hall of Records in downtown Los Angeles. They had no birth certificate on my son, but they have on the other two of my sons. I went to Sacramento, they have no birth certificate on my son. DMV, the hospital records, there are no fingerprints to be had anywhere.
Families Ford 11/15/91
Senator, the current practice, or the practice certainly in the past, has been to provide the families with information that has been correlated specifically with their loved ones -- as opposed to all the information that happened in that year, or that area in which their loved one was lost. Part of that was privacy concerns -- of giving information out about other families' cases, and partly it was [protecting] sources and methods.
I think that over the years, the families have grown dissatisfied with that. They understand that there is more information that certainly is not associated directly with their loved one, but they would like to be able to look at it and see if we miss something... Quite frankly, we've got to find a way to satisfy that requirement. We have got to find a way to give the families more confidence that they're seeing everything that we've got.
If there are some things that are so highly classified and sensitive that we can't show it to them directly, that they can have the committee or someone with a security clearance check it for them... We're going to find in the very short term some sort of an answer for information for the families.
Families Ford 12/04/92
...we didn't lose our credibility with you, with the families, with the American people overnight and we're not going to gain that credibility back overnight. And I can sit here and I can tell you about what we're going to do and I can talk about it.
The only thing that is going to persuade people is our actions and our results, and to prove over time that we are serious, that we do mean what we say, and that despite occasional setbacks, despite occasional human errors, we're going to demonstrate over the next months and weeks, years, that we can do it better than we have done it in the past. And that's our only commitment, to try. And if there are problems that this committee uncovers, we'll try to fix them.
I hope that also when you find good things, particularly about the people in the field who, far from the limelight, far from the excitement of Washington, are on a daily basis out there slugging it out, oftentimes in very primitive conditions. And I hope that your visits to the region, your discussion with these people, you can also say some good things about them.
Families Griffiths 11/06/91
The vast majority of the POW/MIA families are realistic. We don't expect miracles. We expect seriousness by our own government, Executive and Legislative branches, rather than spontaneous reaction to the squeaky wheel or the latest editorial. We expect adherence to established policy and implementation with integrity, not comments from unnamed senior officials which dismiss facts and principle in the perceived interest of political or economic advantage.
Families Hrdlicka 12/03/92
In 1977, the Air Force Casualty Office contacted me and advised me that they were going to review David's case, and unless I had any new evidence that he was alive, they were going to declare him dead. I then stated that I had no evidence since I was not allowed access to intelligence.
Why is it that the burden of proof is always on the families?
Families Hrdlicka 12/03/92
If these men are not alive today, it's because they were either starved, executed, mistreated, or simply died of broken hearts in the last 20 years it has taken to go looking for them. They know where my husband is. I know this. My family will not rest until we find the fate of David.
Families Kerry 11/15/91
I think one of the most important things that could come out of the early days of these hearings is a new structure, and a new relationship process with the families.
Families O'Grady 11/06/91
Hundreds of families have stories just like mine. Yet there is not enough time for each of them to come forward and speak. Even when we appear before you, we must prove our loved ones are alive by a standard not required of the United States Government to prove them dead.
Families - PFOD Oksenberg 06/25/92
The reclassification process had no impact upon our resolve to pursue this issue.
Families - PFOD Oksenberg 06/25/92
Equally moving was a meeting with the wife of a missing American pilot whose plane had been shot down over North Vietnam. She told me she was desperate. She explained that she had lived in suspended animation for I think six or seven years. She wanted to know whether the United States Government thought her husband was alive or dead.
She could ask the Pentagon what was known about her husband's fate which might lead to his being reclassified from being missing to being dead, but she told me that she was psychologically incapable of initiating such a review. She felt that in some sense her request for a review would be an abandonment of her loved one. She wanted to remain faithful to her husband as long as there was any hope and she would do nothing to destroy that hope. But if the Government informed her that her loved one were dead, she would then reluctantly seek to rebuild her life. That is what her husband would have wanted her to do especially for the sake of their son.
She felt that the Government owed her its best judgment about her husband's fate without her having to do anything to ascertain what that judgment was. She requested that the Government change its policy and implement an automatic review of all cases including that of her husband.
Families - PFOD Oksenberg 06/25/92
The Government owed it to the New Jersey soldier and others like him, as well as to their families and friends, to persist in a search for them as long as a straw of hope of their survival existed and to recover their remains if all hope had vanished.
But we also had a responsibility not to arouse false hopes and unjustified expectations.
Families Otis 12/03/92
Sen. Reid: What more do you think we as a committee could do that we have not done?
Otis: If you could even just -- what I've been wanting is for the public to really care. And I know it's been really too long, but the Government and the media didn't press this in the beginning. They just assumed everybody was dead. And we felt so abandoned because not only did our Government or the media care, but the public didn't seem to care.
Families Otis 12/03/92
Nor are we any longer in limbo, as are the families of the missing and of those known to have been alive in captivity. Ron Dodge finally came home, and credit goes in large part to the wives and parents and siblings who founded the National League of Families and to the families and concerned citizens who are still prodding and pleading and questioning.
Families Otis 12/03/92
Commander Dodge's status change hearing was in February 1979. The next of kin had to prove the missing serviceman alive. The Government, with all of their resources, did not have to prove him dead.
Families Quast 11/06/91
I have been promised at a very high policy level access to my father's file, but denied access by those people who have testified before this committee when I went to see the file. I'm asking, what is the policy and who actually runs the show for the POW policy?
Families R. Smith 12/04/92
By the late seventies, remaining MIAs under President Carter's administration were simply declared dead. One memorandum dated May 26, 1977, from the Secretary of Defense, stated that in the long run continuing to carry these personnel as missing in action would force us to make concessions to Hanoi.
Families Reid 12/03/92
...I do hope that there can be some guidelines set that, if, in fact, something like this happens again, we do not have this on-going personal calamity in the lives of everyone connected with somebody that is shot down or is missing in some way.
Families S. Morrissey 12/03/92
I was invited to talk about the family liaison with the POW/MIA agencies. Simply put, the agencies of our Government responsible for the MIA issue do not provide us, of their own volition and in a timely manner, all information that they had about my father's fate, despite their often-repeated promise to do just that.
Families S. Stockdale 12/03/92
When our National League incorporated in the District of Columbia, one of our stated goals was to achieve the fullest possible accounting of our men who were missing in action, and here you are, 27 years after that briefing for Carrier Air Group 16 wives, trying to untwist that braid of lies and deceptions that have indeed emotionally involved the American people and have brought shame and disgrace on our country.
And I will be quick to point out we are not alone in our history of lies and deception about prisoners of war and the missing in action. It seems to me that the one consistent thing the North Vietnamese have done for all 27 years is lie about our American prisoners and missing.
Families S. Stockdale 12/03/92
Even though some of us wives knew we were being fed a steady diet of lies by our Government, we also knew that to publicly denounce our Government while it was engaged in war would be to play into the hands of the enemy and dishonor the very men for whom we sought humane treatment.
Families S. Stockdale 12/03/92
In order for you to put your findings into context, it's important that you understand the extent to which we wives and families were lied to and patronized by our own Government. The Johnson Administration gave us no help whatsoever when we wanted to organize ourselves. And it was in spite of them that we were able to have 2,000 telegrams on President Nixon's desk the day after his inauguration in January 1969.
Families S. Morrissey 12/03/92
I was 16 years old when my dad was shot down. Dad was 42. He was a big man with a good sense of humor and a big appetite for life. He liked sports cars, bagpipe music, Irish whiskey; he fished, he rode broncos in the Rodeo; he loved New Mexico and the Air Force.
I remember him vividly, and miss him terribly. Nonetheless, I have long been resigned to the fact that he's almost certainly dead, and resigned to the fact that I will probably never know what happened to him, but that does not relieve me or you of the obligation to try to find out what did happen to him.
I don't expect the impossible, only the confidence that the Government that ordered my father into combat is doing all that it can to determine his fate and that my family knows all that this Government knows.
Families Schlesinger 09/21/92
I have spent a large part of my life and put a lot of emotion into this, Shields said. It was such an enormous issue and we were dealing with human beings. I knew their wives, I knew their sisters, I knew their brothers. Though he is years away from direct involvement, Mr. Shields said he is still invited to weddings and the other family events by relatives of the missing.
Families Smith 12/03/92
Vice Chairman Smith: When did you know, when were you told by the Vietnamese that your husband was alive? How long was he a prisoner before you knew?
Collins: Tom was missing four years, two months, and two weeks, and I received a letter from him in Christmas of '69. Now, I knew before then, but not through anything the Government did. I found on my own that Tom was seen alive in Hanoi in 1966.
Vice Chairman Smith: How did you find that out?
Collins: I cannot tell you that, sir.
Vice Chairman Smith: All right, that is fine.
Collins: I cannot testify in an open hearing as to how I found this, sir. I was more fortunate than most family members. I had friends in high places.
Vice Chairman Smith: Do you have any reason to believe that anybody in the United States Government knew he was alive and did not tell you?
Collins: Oh, yes, I'm certain that they did. See, here we come back to the beginning.
Vice Chairman Smith: So people in the United States Government knew your husband was alive and they did not tell you.
Collins: Yes.
Fraud Brooks 12/01/92
...there also is a category of people at work surrounding the POW/MIA issue which I will categorize as professional predators...
Fraud Kerry 12/02/92
Some people have seen fit to literally fabricate photographs and to distribute those photographs alleging that they represent the loved ones of families in this country. The hopes of families have been unfairly torn and tattered as a consequence of those actions. That is a predatory action. It is a disgrace. People who do it, I think, rank as low on the scale of measurement of human behavior as you can get. There are just no words strong enough to condemn the activities of people who will knowingly distribute a photograph alleging that they are today held when they know that photograph is a fabrication.
Fraud McCain 12/02/92
...I and other members of this committee have urged the Justice Department to investigate allegations of POW/MIA fraud. I certainly hope such an investigation is by now well under way. The information which the committee's investigation yields should be of valuable assistance to the Justice Department in its efforts to prosecute those people that have used this issue to intentionally deceive decent people.
Fraud McCain 12/02/92
It will also come as no surprise to my colleagues that I am somewhat disappointed by the limits of time and scope placed on this hearing in our investigation. And this is not a criticism of you, Mr. Chairman... Nor is it a criticism of committee investigators, who in my view have done an exemplary job in a short amount of time and under difficult circumstances...
I understand the committee had a great many subjects to address in the span of 1 year and not all subjects could receive the attention they deserved...
My disappointment is mitigated, however, by the knowledge that standing committees of Congress will again have jurisdiction over all questions concerning our POW/MIAs after the Select Committee finishes its work. And thanks to this committee, Congress' awareness of this issue and its responsibilities to continue the work of this committee has been greatly heightened.
Fraud Sheetz 12/01/92
Sen. McCain: How much of the effort that your organization is engaged in has been -- how much of your assets have had to be diverted to tracking down the bogus pictures and the hoaxers?
Sheetz: At times, Senator, I would tell you that that process has literally precluded us from doing anything else. Because the political pressure has been so intense and the high interest among the people in the Government, this committee, the American public, to know what is the truth on those cases...It's an opportunity cost argument. Essentially, what you're doing is dropping the work that would probably have more payoff to chase after things that ultimately turn out to be useless exercises.
Fraud Sheridan 12/02/92
...I too know of a family that was defrauded of many thousands of dollars. Somehow, those people have to be recognized and they have to be dealt with. And they cannot be allowed to get back out on the street and do this the next time an issue comes along. I feel very strongly about that.
Fundraising Albrecht 12/02/92
Sen. Reid: That is important. You say that 90 percent of the solicitations --
Albrecht: Of this group that we have evaluated, better than 90 percent probably are spending --
Sen. Reid: Meet the 60 percent standard?...
Albrecht: That is significant, and I think it is important that we bear in mind that there is a lot that is right and good that is going on in this field, although we still are just as concerned, as we should always be, about misleading solicitations, about creative accounting, and about ineffective governance.
Fundraising Albrecht 12/02/92
...I first need to emphasize that these practices are far from universal, though they are spreading at a disturbing rate. In fact, 76 percent of all the national charities reviewed and evaluated by NCIB meet all nine of our standards, including those having to do with fundraising practices and fundraising reporting.
Fundraising Albrecht 12/02/92
There is a problem with creative accounting in the field, exactly. And there is a certain amount of it that goes on.
Fundraising Albrecht 12/02/92
Vice Chairman Smith: On 100-percent of expenses, what is the acceptable figure for fundraising expenses, out of that 100-percent? Did any of you say? You might have said it, and I may have missed it.
Mr. Albrecht: We've taken a close look at 30 percent. By that we mean we get more information. Is the percentage going up? Is it coming down? Are they in an acquisition campaign? Are they a new organization?
Fundraising Allen 12/02/92
It's kind of like a consumer-beware kind of notion. And people being asked for the funds need to be very careful and ask a lot of questions.
Fundraising Allen 12/02/92
...I think everyone wants to make it a level playing field, and one where the public can have the trust that it has long held in this sector.
Fundraising Allen 12/02/92
As a matter of federalism, I think it would be unrealistic to think of a Federal role that would take care of the problem.
At the same time I think, personally, there is a role for the Federal Government, and probably a larger role it could play that could include prosecutions by the Department of Justice and the U.S. Attorneys more extensively than we now see based on larceny and based on fraud.
Fundraising Canada 12/02/92
Each one of these ideas are techniques, Senator. Techniques to convey to the prospective donor what Colonel Bailey had already related to us. Techniques used in direct mail fund raising to raise money for our client so that they go ahead and continue their programs.
Fundraising Eberle 12/02/92
Mr. Eberle: Senator, I still fail to see how that differs from when you have a speech inserted in the Congressional Record and then it is printed in the Congressional Record as if you gave the speech on the floor, how it's any different.
Chairman Kerry: It is extremely different. Because all of our words we are responsible for here and everybody understands that. And the speech does not purport to be anything other than the speech.
This purports to be something other than what it is.
Fundraising Eberle 12/02/92
Chairman Kerry: You cannot say, please excuse the handwriting, but I am writing at a makeshift desk. He was not writing at a makeshift desk, was he?
Mr. Eberle: No...
Fundraising Eberle 12/02/92
Senator, I will have to be honest. I have no idea whatsoever and I have no idea why there are quotes around there. I'm sort of reminded of that comment by Elizabeth Barrett Browning when she was asked, why did she write a particular thing in a verse and she said, when I wrote that only God and I knew and now only God knows.
Fundraising Kerry 12/02/92
...you sit here and say to us, gee, I only got $100,000, but that is really disingenuous, because the total fee produced by this which benefits you or your family or partners is significantly more than that.
So you sit here and say you only got this amount of money when in fact the charity, quote, winds up with $200,000 against $1.9 million raised. I find that unconscionable and extraordinary.
Fundraising Kerry 12/02/92
What I'm saying to you is, there is a body of evidence out there that has never been in the public domain. It should have been in the public domain, and now that it is in the public domain, I think if you read it, and those in the press take the time to read it, you will find that there is a basis of evidence, a basis of information that provides a rationale or a reason for documents like that being written, as was the league document being written...
There is a body of information like this throughout this government and some of it has never been disproved. Much of it has not -- much of it is bunk. A lot of it is bunk. A lot of it is garbage and it has been proven so. But a lot of it has not been disproved...
But there is a distinction between that and a letter that goes out for six years saying, P.S., some of our captive Americans are in failing health. Now I guess they knew that in 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, same letter. P.S., they are in failing health.
Fundraising Kerry 12/02/92
...I must tell you, I mean we have just found some bold-faced, non-accurate statements. Each of you suggest this is the information you are given and you had no reason to believe otherwise. I have no way of saying otherwise, obviously, so I accept that. But it leaves us in a terrible quandary. And you know what? It leaves a lot of families and a lot of American citizens sickened, sadden, victimized as a consequence. And we should not allow that to happen in this country.
Fundraising Kerry 12/02/92
...As part of this arrangement she elicited from InfoCision an under-the-table rebate without her clients knowledge and characterized it as 3 percent rebate to her. She entered into a management consultant agreement with VVnW, and under this agreement she was to receive $5,000 a month plus 10 percent of the net income of VVNW. And I would just read from a portion of that agreement: "expenses related to the performance of this agreement will be categorized as program expenditures on the clients financial statements and tax returns. Neither the existence nor the details of this agreement will be discussed by either party with any member of the press..."
"The essential points would be that one of the letters, a solicitation letter, read as follows: Thanks to your support, Veterans of the Vietnam War have sent a delegation to Vietnam to negotiate for the release of our POWs. During these meetings in Vietnam, the Vietnamese leaders told our representatives that American POWs are still alive in Southeast Asia, exclamation point. Capital letters: THEY ADMITTED IT - FINALLY, exclamation point..."
"Our representatives have been to Southeast Asia to meet with Government leaders to break the deadlock. Underlined: The Vietnamese have admitted that some of our men are still alive..."
Fundraising Reid 12/02/92
...a lot of the money that is raised is based upon people's fears, prejudice, sympathies, and sorrows, and there is no better illustration than some of the stuff that we have gone over today.
Fundraising Reid 12/02/92
...the point that I was making is that we have your fees plus all these subsidiary companies, of which you said you don't receive remuneration from those, but your family does. I think it pretty well speaks for itself.
Fundraising Salta 12/02/92
To advocate a cause, to seek to disseminate information to the public, are important in a democratic, pluralistic society such as ours. That is why Congress has steadfastly provided for a relatively low-cost universal mail delivery system.
Nonetheless, someone has to pay the postage, the printing, the paper, the envelopes, the copywriters, the graphic artists, the data processors, list owners, and other vendors that it takes to produce and mail a direct mail package. Plus, there needs to be some money left over for the charitable cause. Not every cause can find a sufficient number of citizens out there to foot the total bill.
Fundraising Salta 12/02/92
Mr. LeBoutillier being, again, a credible man, the advisory board that he had some of the more distinguished military people on it -- McDaniel, Graham, Colonel Hopper, Major General John K. Singlaub, many celebrities. We had to believe that information that Mr. LeBoutillier was giving us was correct and accurate.
Fundraising Salta 12/02/92
I don't know that it's legal, but if we got one out, it would certainly be a wonderful thing, I can assure you.
Fundraising Salta 12/02/92
As best we can determine at this late date, my company was paid approximately $100,000 during the 6 years that we worked for Operation Rescue. This amounted to 10 percent of the total amount of funds raised.
Fundraising Salta 12/02/92
Sen. McCain: ...Now, if I could direct your attention to number 5 there it says this guy is held out and then marked out, he survived the downing of his airplane but with a badly broken femur. He is guarded by the, the blacked out, in contact. Getting ready for some serious fun and games in this case.
Now, in 1987, if my information is correct, this was sent out. Someone in your organization might have thought in the intervening years, since we have not gotten any of these claims corroborated in any way, no Americans came out, no additional corroborated information, et cetera, that maybe you ought to stop to evaluate whether you are sending out what clearly is an invalid message.
On the middle one, it says remember, some of our captive Americans are in failing health. Did you ever ask them how they knew that some of our Americans were in failing health?
Mr. Salta: No, I did not.
Sen. McCain: ...Mr. LeBoutillier claimed that they suffered 65 casualties in their efforts, and you printed that. Did you ever ask to see or talk to any of these? Did any -- any -- of the allegations raised here, were any of them ever questioned by you and decided not to be sent out?
Mr. Salta: By me personally? No.
Fundraising Stern 12/02/92
Mr. Stern: With due respect, Senator Kerry, the highlighted statement -- what is the gross fraudulent text of it?
Chairman Kerry: I read it to you, that as many as 650 of our men are still currently being held. And the inference that the Select Committee provided that information is a very clear writer's trick. You do not have to be a genius to understand what is happening there.
Garwood Knecht 12/01/92
The final area concerns the Garwood case.
He had in his initial debriefings reported that he had not seen any Americans. But then in later interviews that were in the press and in interviews of DIA, he said that he had these sightings. DIA could not find the locations that would physically map where some of these things took place.
Garwood Shields 06/25/92
While Congressman Montgomery was in Hanoi being assured that no Americans were being held captive in Vietnam, Arlo Gay was being held at Son Tay prison and Tucker Gougelmann was being held in Chi Hoa prison in Saigon. Gay was later released but Gouglemann died in prison and only his remains returned home.
Garwood Sieverts 06/25/92
Sen. Brown: Are there other names like Garwood where we submitted and asked and they simply would not make a response?
Sieverts: A great many. Just about everybody... we provided them with the entire MIA list. And then, shortly thereafter, the entire MIA and BNR lists... the MIAs and BNRs would simply be listed alphabetically without that faintly adverse indication that one is killed, BNR, the other is MIA.
Garwood Sieverts 06/25/92
Sen. Brown: Did this Nation, during all those years, ever specifically ask the Government of North Vietnam if they held Bobby Garwood?
Mr. Sieverts: The answer to that is, yes.
Sen. Brown: And what was their response?
Mr. Sieverts: No response at all.
Sen. Brown: They did not say that he was not there, they simply did not respond?
Mr. Sieverts: That's correct.
Garwood Vessey 06/25/92
Chairman Kerry: So a statement in 1973 that there is no indication that anyone was alive would simply be inaccurate, would it not?
Vessey: I would say yes. You could say we have no firm evidence or something like that, but certainly, the discrepancy cases we have were clearly discrepancies that were unanswered at the time.
Government Policies and Actions Burch 11/06/91
The POW/MIA Interagency Group is said to be in charge of coordinating a policy on the highest national priority. What is remarkable about this group is the list of absentees. Neither the Central Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency, nor the Drug Enforcement Agency has membership on that committee.
Government Policies and Actions Cheney 11/05/91
I think the reaction of the Department will be set by me and by my presence here today. I think that I have indicated to everybody who works for me that we take this matter very seriously and that our mission is to cooperate with the committee, to benefit from whatever guidance and oversight you care to give us, that Congress has a very legitimate role to play in this area.
Government Policies and Actions Cheney 11/05/91
Senator, I would be happy to see to it to the extent that I am able from the standpoint of the Department of Defense that there is no retribution against anyone who would provide information that is useful to the Committee and during the course of your inquiry.
Government Policies and Actions Cheney 11/05/91
With respect to how the Department operated in previous administrations over the years that set a tone or a stage where families of POWs and MIAs in Southeast Asia believe the Department was less than truthful, I am simply not responsible for [that]; that was not on my watch.
Government Policies and Actions Grassley 06/24/92
...the amount of stonewalling that went on, what a contrast to have a former communist open up documents of their government to members of our Government.
Government Policies and Actions Kerry 11/15/91
It is no fun, as a foreign officer, having your bona fides questioned. The committee is not questioning them in a way that I think some are. The Committee is trying to sort out who knows what... you are public officials and the system has come to a grinding gridlock of lack of credibility and we have got a requirement here to sweat it out. You understand that, but I just want you to know that I think there are a lot of extraordinarily dedicated people who are committed to this issue who are working day and night to try to find out if somebody is alive and to bring them home. Regrettably, we are where we are because there is a then and a now to this issue... To the degree we can sort out what happened in the past and understand it, we are going to help to understand this issue today.
Government Policies and Actions Sheridan 12/02/92
The war in Southeast Asia was a very long war. Thousands upon hundreds of thousands were involved either fighting the battle or waiting at home. You could take each one of those individuals and you're going to get a different perspective of that war meant to them, depending on the time frame or the military service or what the person was doing at home.
I would like to think that our Government has done everything that they've needed to do, but we hear from time to time that may not be the case. We do believe that the Government should be very forthcoming.
Government Policies and Actions Smith 06/24/92
Over the past 45 years, we have seen not only zealous but jealous guarding of information by the Executive Branch... it would be one heck of a lot easier if, in fact, the Executive Branch would cooperate with the legislative branch and get the truth out to the American people totally, unequivocally... That is what we have asked for. That is what the American people want... We would not have a investigation today on any of this if the information had been put out an given to the American people. So I expect cooperation. The cooperation thus far has been good... but it has not been total and it has not been easy getting all of the information.
JFT-FA Larson 12/04/92
Sen. Daschle: Let me just stop you. Did you say live sightings are number one.
Larson: Live sightings.
Sen. Daschle: Discrepancy cases, number two.
Larson: Discrepancy cases.
Sen. Daschle: And then surrounding cases that may be related to discrepancy, number three?
Larson: Yes, sir.
JFT-FA Larson 12/04/92
Chairman Kerry: ...Are you confident that you are, in fact, making progress and that you think that if we continue down this road we can get answers, or do you feel there is a significant something missing that the committee ought to know about and articulate so that we can change it?
Larson: Mr. Chairman, I'm absolutely convinced that we have the proper command structure, organization, people, priorities, and approach in place to do the fullest possible accounting. I think the key to it is what will the Vietnamese do and what will the three countries over there do, particularly, the two countries of Laos and Vietnam.
I think our system that's in place will allow us to evaluate that. I think for the first time I've got the resources to continue to push and to continue to press and to make them produce in the things they promised to produce and to evaluate what they give us. So I think the system is there. But I think the key to success is on the other side and what they are willing to do for us as this system goes forward.
JFT-FA Larson 12/04/92
Sen. Daschle: I remember General Needham saying in Vientiane that you assess the time it will take to do a case and double it, because you just never know. With that caveat and completely appreciative of the unknowns out there, do you have any kind of a time frame within which you believe this entire effort can be completed?
Larson: ...My original estimate was about two years, that at the two-year point we should have a good idea as to whether we could continue or how close we were to the fullest possible accounting. At the 1-year point we will be through phase 1 and will start into the geographic investigations. I would say by next summer we'll have a pretty good idea of where we are as we look at the geographic surveys through the country.
JFT-FA Smith 12/04/92
Some of the information that we are receiving on your work has been -- and some of the cable traffic and so forth -- has been somewhat critical about yourselves, as well as the Vietnamese.
For example, in some of the things that I have looked at, there was a reference to your last field effort as one of the least successful in terms of a comparison with others. Another comment, the Vietnamese have shown no evidence of a serious effort to search records for information or to locate witnesses.
JTF-FA Andrews 12/03/92
Chairman Kerry: What is it in the structure, that we can anticipate, that you believe is going to eliminate the problems that have existed? Didn't you say this was a new operation.
Secretary Cheney came in. We are gratified for his early testimony. He said we are going to change this. A lot of changes have been implemented, to his credit. He has followed through, he has put new people in, he has committed resources. Just a night and day difference between what this administration has done in the last year and where we have been the last 20 years.
But what do we look for structurally, as a consequence of those decisions, that will change this?
Andrews: Well, I think you've certainly made the point of having all these documents in one place where, so even if there is a turnover, certainly someone can come and see everything in their file. I think this is something that certainly CDO is working towards achieving.
I do think the more that we get into the business of JTF-FA and DIA and the other agencies not seeing families but continuing to do what their job is and ensuring that that information gets to the casualty officers, we're going to eliminate some of the problems that we've had.
JTF-FA Christmas 06/25/92
We are employing a two-track approach toward resolving cases in Vietnam. First our detachment in Hanoi, consisting of experts skilled in interview techniques, Vietnamese wartime records, and graves registration specialists are engaged in a day in and day out effort.
Second, our Hawaii-based search teams are conducting intensive 30-day periods of investigations and remains recovery operations. Between these periods of intensive field activities, our detachment staff and Vietnamese officials accomplish a number of tasks essential for the success of these field operations.
JTF-FA Christmas 06/25/92
During the last completed period of field activities, our teams recovered or obtained from villagers fragmentary remains believed to be from seven loss incidents and involving 10 individuals... From the other last known alive individuals whose cases we investigated, we found no evidence which suggests they are alive. In some instances, we interviewed witnesses to the death and burial of Americans. Further efforts now are required to locate and to recover those remains.
JTF-FA Gadoury 11/06/91
Sir, I think we have the mechanism to conduct the investigations on our side, and all we're waiting for is that access and the ability to get to those places where we need to go.
JTF-FA Griffiths 11/06/91
What is being worked now, all that's missing, is greater responsiveness, not more effort.
JTF-FA Kerry 11/15/91
...you are, in a sense, under siege here. You are going to have to come back with the Desert Storm mentality on this one in order to deal with that. I think you are beginning to see that and recognize that this is not, as I said at the outset of the hearing, something that anyone of us wished upon any one of us, or this committee, or the United States Senate. It exists because it has this tenacious life of its own, and the only way this committee can avoid becoming tarred by this process is to guarantee that we are opening it up...
JTF-FA Kerry 11/06/91
Chairman Kerry: The public has no sense of what it's like to be out in the boonies sometimes, as you are, with a rucksack and living in pretty rough circumstances, day in and day out. I know what a pleasure it is to get back to Hanoi to be able to get a shower or something. And Hanoi is pretty rudimentary. So you are really, all of you, in Laos, in the jungle or wherever it is that you go, it is often at enormous risk and at continuous discomfort. I just want you to know that we are deeply appreciative of those efforts and very, very respectful of them. We wish you well as you continue this difficult quest. Thank you very, very much, gentlemen.
Gadoury: Sir, I would submit that the risk we take is certainly not greater than the risk that the people that we're looking for took at one time.
Chairman Kerry: We appreciate that, and we appreciate your recognition of that also.
JTF-FA Kerry 11/06/91
?...legitimate heroes of this effort, Kerry called Bell, Gadoury, Cole. Their story is an important part of understanding the genuine, good-faith effort that people have been making and the type of commitment that individuals have made to this issue over the years. And any inquiry into the POW/MIA effort that is lacking in their testimony is an incomplete inquiry.
JTF-FA Kerry 11/05/91
...I happen to believe that [U.S. investigators] are heroes in the best sense of the world. I think that Americans need to know how many years people have been out there in the field in some mighty dangerous, sweaty circumstances, jumping on helicopters that most of us would hold our breath going near, and going out into the jungle...
JTF-FA Larson 12/04/92
Our Joint Task Force has conducted five joint field activities in Vietnam in the last year, seven in Laos, and four in Cambodia, and we have ongoing operations right now out there in the field in Laos and Cambodia. We have done 294 joint field investigations. We have surveyed 149 crash sites or grave sites, and we have mounted 35 remains recovery operations.
JTF-FA Larson 12/04/92
Chairman Kerry: And how many people are on the ground in Vietnam and Laos?
Larson: Our teams have varied in size from a low of about 28 to a high of about 63. It depends on how many teams we actually have. We shoot for about 70. We like to get five or six teams in the field at a time, particularly in Vietnam.
JTF-FA Needham 12/04/92
One of my policies is that we be truly open. We do not classify any documents, and we allow our people to give us a candid assessment.
We knew that we were having trouble with one of the teams in Vietnam last time. We brought it to the Vietnamese attention about half-way through the joint field activity. This was one of the ones I referred, kind of mixed cooperation, and in fact we did not accomplish all the cases in that area that we had hoped to last time.
JTF-FA Sheetz 11/06/91
...the Defense Department plans to investigate on the ground in Vietnam each and every lost -- every missing, unaccounted-for individual.
JTF-FA Smith 06/25/92
Vice Chairman Smith: General Christmas, on the 6th of May there was an AP report quoting both you and General Needham. General Needham said-- this is what he is attributed as having said: "There still is no reason to believe any missing Americans is alive in Vietnam, Cambodia or Laos, but every live sighting has to be checked out."
JTF-FA Vessey 06/25/92
I believe that the organizational and procedural framework is now in place to achieve our goal of fullest possible accounting.
JTF-FA Vessey 12/04/92
To take advantage of the increases in Vietnamese cooperation, the United States made some significant organizational changes in the POW/MIA area in the past two weeks. The Secretary of Defense established that task force subordinate to the Commander in Chief Pacific... And the Secretary also established the office of the Deputy Assistant Secretary for POW/MIA Affairs. I think there's plenty for both of those outfits to do.
JTF-FA Vessey 11/05/91
I want to tell you that I have worked very closely with these people. They are all mortal human beings like you and me. I disagree with many of them many times, and we argue and battle. But I want to tell you that they are all dedicated people. If you could see the field work that has been done with these people traveling by old Soviet helicopters, by dug-out canoe, on foot, and into areas in Vietnam where no one has been since the battles were fought, trying to find evidence of what happened to our people, you too would have the same appreciation for their dedication that I have.
The opinions expressed on this site are those of
Advocacy and Intelligence Index for Prisoners of War - Missing in Action.
If you have any questions or comments, please e-mail us at the above address.
Archive ©AII POW-MIA All Rights Reserved