Q. What type of equipment did you see?

A. Equipment I'd never -- I shouldn't say never, but a lot of radio equipment, recording equipment, there was a device that a helium balloon could automatically inflate and take something up fast for aerial retrieval, cameras, recorders, parabolic apparatus. There was a device -- it was the damnest thing I've ever seen, I would say it would be about probably about this size, plastic. It looked like a giant calculator, and he would hook it up to the telephone and push in buttons, for some scrambling apparatus on numbers. That he personally carried with him and we used that frequently.

Q. Did Colonel Gritz tell you where he got all this equipment?

A. Yes, some of it was on behalf of Litton, some of it was on behalf of Hughes. There was some stuff that charter members, they had little metal tags, that were obvious, that were removed, and they were activity materials that could not be traced back, hopefully could not be traced back to the government.

Q. Did you ask Gritz what all the equipment was for?

A. Well, later on I did, yeah, we went over most of it.

Q. Later on, you mean, before you --

A. Went in October, yes.

Q. Was all of that equipment activity equipment, or just some of it?

A. I don't know what you mean by all of it. Did he say all of this came from the activity or just some of it, isthat --

Q. Right.

A. No. He would say this is from Litton, this is from Hughes, this is from Bragg, but I would say 90 percent was activity-donated, for lack of a better word, equipment.

Q. When were you first told what this equipment was for?

A. I think it was after I first introduced him to V.P.

Q. When was the introduction to Vang Pao?

A. As I recall, it was either in Bob Dornan's office, or at V.P.'s Lao Community Center, I'm not sure because one was the one day and the other was the next day.

Q. So Vang Pao's community center was in California?

A. Yes, he has a Lao community center down in Euclid. He has two really, both in Orange County, one in Garden Grove, and one in, I believe it is Santa Anna,

Q. So you didn't take Gritz to Montana?

A. Oh no, no, we never had to leave California to connect with V.P. at all.

Q. Could you describe for us what happened when they met?

A. Yeah, they saluted each other, it was bullshit. It was funny. They respected each other as officers, which I thought was a joke, because they were in civilian clothes, but it was very serious, even though I laughed. It was funny. Vang Pao would not talk to Bo without me there, which kind of surprised me. I said you guys have met. I have introduced you. Matter of fact, Bo even pulled out a military I.D. card showing he's retired, lieutenant colonel rank. Bo offered him money. He was not at all concerned about money. Cash was not a problem to him. It was at the Laos office was the first introduction because I remember as we walked in General Souvan had introduced himself so it was the Laos center, the first introduction.

Q. Were there any maps looked at?

A. There was one at Vang Pao's, but the main map was in Congressman Robert K. Dornan's office near LAX.

Q. Why don't you tell us about the discussion with the map?

A. Bo said that basically on a humanitarian side he and a group of people had gotten some information before they retired and they wanted to go see if there were Americans there. Vang Pao had said, you know, I have been telling, you know, Daniel, and the rest of them for years that every now and then we would run across areas that there are Americans there, and not just white men, there's black men there. They are not Cubans, they are not Soviets, they are American and I'm telling you that.

I've told you before -- not Bo, but you, the government -- that they are there. They discussed, way up in Sam Nuea province, I mean, way up, where he says that it would taken anywhere from 6 to 8 months for him to get the information, that's how hard it would be from Sam Nuea to get the information back into Thailand, Thailand back to V.P. But he says your government wants nothing to do with it. They chitted-chatted about military stuff for a while. V.P. was very concerned that there was absolutely no CIA involvement at all. He was really upset at the agency, and he made it very well known, in no small manner.

Q. So was he told that the agency had absolutely nothing to do with this?

A. Bo told him, yeah. I told him too. I said, trust me G. There's nothing going on. You know me. I wouldn't get involved if it had anything to do with the government, and he was convinced. I think he was especially convinced when he was offered a substantial amount of money because he knew the agency wouldn't do that.

Q. Did Vang Pao tell you or tell Gritz what it was that had made him distrust the CIA?

A. Yeah, we all had a discussion. I had kind of previously known from some '80 conversations. During the conclusion of the war, Dan Arnold had promised Vang Pao that he would go ahead and continue the pipeline, that he would get not only his immediate family, but all the high-ranking individuals that worked the Lima sights out. Whatever happened, that didn't happen. He said that Turner ended up screwing everything up 2 years after the fall of Saigon, a lot of the guys ended up being out of work. And that all kinds of Vang Pao's -- and I think there were some loyalty there -- a lot of his men were murdered, killed, and he was very upset at that.

And he comes back and the government gives him a community center and puts 20,000 of his people on welfare and it's like, wait a minute, you promised this, this, this. They bought him a nice wheat and barley ranch, in the freezing cold Montana, when he's used to Indo-China weather. I mean he was very pissed, and I can now understand why. I would have been pissed. So he wanted to make sure there was no company involvement. It's almost like he was ready to go to war with the agency, if he had to.

Q. Did he know what the activity was?

A. Mm. Bo had mentioned it to him,

Q. Was he comfortable that the activity was?

A. Civilian.

Q. So he was comfortable with that?

A. Yes.

Q. He didn't know the connection between the activity and the agency?

A. Not at all.

Q. What exactly as far as you could tell -- what was Gritz trying to get from Vang Pao?

A. His cooperation with not only him here, but mainly his men there that were in and out of the country doing cross- border operations constantly. There was a list, and it's not in my handwriting, of some things that they had wanted. He said, you know, the hardest thing that we are having to get and we need is penicillin. We need atrophine, and we need all kinds of medical stuff. And he was told, yeah, we could get everything for him. He didn't want much in the way of munitions, he wanted a few, but weapons was not a problem.

(Pause.)

Just so you get into the area of the meeting in Robert Dornan's office. That was a significant meeting.

Q. Why don't we talk about that meeting and then take a break so we can go down to the disbursement office. Let's move on to that meeting. When did the meeting in Congressman Dornan's office take place?

A. I would say it was about August 26th, 28th, somewhere around there.

Q. Who was present at that meeting?

A. Let's see, General Vang Pao came, Colonel Gritz, myself, Colonel Gee, Colonel Van Yee, some Chinaman, Stan Mullin, Congressman Dornan's aide. I think that was it.

Q.Dornan was not there?

A. No. It was funny because it was set specifically to make sure he wasn't there, but then that following Sunday Bo met personally with Bob, so it was, in my opinion, because you asked for opinions earlier, a ruse to convince Vang Pao that it was not involved with the agency. Bob Dornan at that time, as I recall, was chairman of the POW/MIA task force, had an interest, and so it was very convincing for Vang Pao to meet there.

We had an hour meeting, maybe a few minutes more. Stan Mullin, as I recall, and you could find him, I think was present for almost all of it. We discussed in detail -- I shouldn't say we, they discussed in detail, camps, and the last reported live sightings that had occurred, and which camps were closest to the Mekong River on the Thai border/Laos border area that could be easily verifiable rather than going deep in country and risking more casualties. They flip-flopped military jargon back and forth.

Q. They being Vang Pao?

A. And Bo.

Q. What was your involvement with Gritz at that point?

A. Just to bring them together in Dornan's office. I called and arranged the meeting.

Q. You were still not signed up to go on any missions?

A. I had no intentions of going anywhere.

Q. Was anything agreed upon between Vang Pao and Gritz at that meeting?

A. Yes, Vang Pao at that meeting agreed he would cooperate 100 percent for a further incursion, that he would go ahead and send intelligence to his people down there, andit was agreed, yes.

Q. What exactly was the incursion that was agreed on?

A. They had agreed that some time, as soon as the weather cleared up, October, November, that an American team would go down with his people and go take Pictures of POW's in a camp.

Q. And the purpose for taking the pictures was explained to you how?

A. That it was a reconnaissance team, that they wanted to go in and identify are there Americans there, that they had been hearing it via intelligence and I think the KH-135 and SR-71 had taken photos. That wasn't good enough. They had information, but they wanted Americans to actually come back and say, hey, were they there?

Q. Then what was going to happen?

A. Then Blue Light and Delta were going to go ahead and do a massive rescue, and that's all they needed was to show they're there. You had this whole naval task force in the Gulf of Siam to back it up. You had a joint Ubon/Udorn air operation, so you had some power there. If it was going to happen you had a lot of power.

Q. Was there one specific camp that was being discussed?

A. Yes, we discussed, not one, but there were several that they were discussing. Let's go back to the map here. They were discussing mostly Mahaxay and the Nhommarath, thosetwo areas right here. One of the hottest places was here, Mahaxay, but the problem they'd been having by the time intelligence would get here, back to Vang Pao's people, it could be literally a month, so what they had done is previously there was an operation that had given them radios so they could communicate quicker, letting them know. So there was a lot of spotted camps up along here, that were mobile camps, and that they might have them there for 10 to 15 days at a time working and then they would move them.

Q. When you say them, you mean the prisoners?

A. American prisoners, right.

Q. Just so that the transcript is correct, you are talking about mobile camps?

A. Along here on the other side of highway 1.

Q. Northwest of Nhommarath?

A. If you go in NKP, here's NKP which is a border town, which is on the Laos side, north of here, Vientiane was up here. This is where we launched somewhere in here, it's not written here, but it's somewhere along in here. If we had a more detailed map it would show you. And on the other side of Highway 1, I think you're missing Highway 2, it's one real close to the river on the other side, and there had been mobile camps along here. I have no idea what is in here, whether it's gems, jewels, opium, rice, or what, but they had been working a lot of Americans along this side of the ridge.

Q. Why don't you take this purple pen and just draw a circle around where the mobile camps were?

(The witness complied.)

THE WITNESS: I would say probably in here. You want to call it A?

BY MR. KRAVITZ:

Q. Sure. That's the area Vang Pao was talking about?

A. He was talking about when there's mobile people here, it would be better to go ahead and cross here and try and verify intelligence than it would be to launch deep in country. Granted all along here they were being moved back and forth in the Mu Gia Pass, but if you just needed a rapid confirmation, get your pictures, and then you'd have your confirmation, but like you said it's not going to do any good.

Q. So the decision was not to go into Nhommarath or Mahaxay?

A. Yes. See we were told, we went to this area, our maps, of course, weren't anything like this. We had an area that said like the Mahaxay area. When we launched from Vientiane -- we could have gone -- the way we went, we could have gone here, but I have no idea, you know -- that we had discussed these camps because these were apparently permanent highway camps and people would come in from Mu Gia on a frequent bad is and they would move them back over into Vietnam. But, you know, these were of extreme importance to Vang Pao.

Q. What was the arrangement ultimately when that meeting ended in Dornan's office that day?

A. That he was going to contact his people,

Q. He being Vang Pao?

A. Yes. He would go ahead and approve to his guerillas down there to get the most current and recent intelligence that you have on Americans, the movements, send it to him.

Q. Send it to?

A. Vang Pao, and that he would go ahead and recontact us, which he did.

MR. KRAVITZ: Why don't we take a break.

(Recess.)

BY MR. KRAVITZ:

Q. Before we broke we were talking about the meeting in Congressman Dornan's office primarily between Vang Pao and Bo Gritz at which the decision was made to go ahead with the mission. Was there a time later that year, in 1981, that you were specifically told that the mission was on for a specific time?

A. Yes. There were several meetings from that late August through September, there was a call to where Bo had called me in another location in California and said theôƒ mission was a go, there is a Presidential Charter, would I come down and assist in some other elements of it. I came down, saw a very large suitcase of money.

Q. Where did you come down to?

A. 8029 Holy Cross Drive in Westchester, California, Bo Gritz's home. I was given some money, he had asked if I would go to Bangkok with his team because his team didn't know Vang Pao, et cetera, et cetera. I said, well, let me think about it. The financial offer was substantial so I accepted.

Q. Was this the first time that you'd been asked to go along on any part of this mission?

A. I believe so, before it was always just -- I think what had happened is Bo realized that Vang Pao, being Bo was the new man on the block, Vang Pao might not explicitly trust him. There were comments made by Vang Pao, well, you know is Scott going to go down and meet with these people? So, I think it was decided that I would go, but that's as far as I would go, was Bangkok.

Q. So when you met with Bo Gritz that time, when was this, in October?

A. September. We had several meetings.

Q. But when he first gave you money it was to go simply to Bangkok as opposed to going into Laos?

A. Correct, yes.

Q. How much money did he give you at that time?

A. I think it was about $7,200.

Q. In cash?

A. Yes. Hundred dollar bills.

Q. How much money did you see at Bo Gritz's house?

A. He said it was $426,000. There was no doubt in my mind it could have been. I don't know because I didn't count it, but there was a large briefcase full of cash.

Q. He had one briefcase?

A. One briefcase, opened it up and said, look at all this money.

Q. $100 bills?

A. All $100 bills.

Q. That's what he paid you in?

A. Yeah, he gave me a roll, a very large roll of $100 bills. I gave some to the church, took Randy Sanford out, and, you know, basically gave $100 bills away.

Q. Did you ask Bo where the money came from?

A. I didn't have to. Well, after taking the money and after having gone back, we had some further discussions that might be in the area, that might not be a good area to discuss because I did take some of the money. Your question is did I ask Bo where the money came from? The answer no.

Q. Did Bo indicate to you whether the money came from the activity?

A. A portion thereof, yes.

Q. What did Bo say about that?

A. That he was in direct contact with Jerry King and others and that's pretty much where I left it.

Q. Where else did Bo say the money came from?

A. Ask Bo, that would be hearsay,

Q. It's not hearsay it he told it to you. Where did he say the money came from?

A. It came from profits, from other sources, other situations.

Q. Drug money,

A. I'm not going to say that it was.

Q. You are not going to say that it wasn't?

A. Well, it's self incriminating to say did you take drug money, Scott, and I say, yes, then I've incriminated myself.

Q. We don't need to go into that.

A. To me that's not important where the money came from. I know you might think it is.

Q. Did Bo say anything about the money coming from any POW fund raising organizations?

A. Never, never.

Q. Did you ever suspect?

A. No, I knew that it wasn't.

Q. What was the plan that you and Bo agreed to specifically when he gave you the $7,200?

A. That I would go ahead, meet with these other people that were coming in from different parts of the country.

Q. Meet in California?

A. Yes, we all met in California, but I was pretty much not to ever tell them anything about Vang Pao's meetings in any sort of detail that Bo -- in other words, he wanted to keep each of us only knowing bits and pieces. He didn't want us to share information amongst each other.

Q. Why is that?

A. I don't know. Probably to protect some things that he didn't want these people to know about and I left it at that. It didn't really matter to me, back then.

Q. Did you then meet with these other people who were going to be involved in the trip?

A. Yeah, there were some other people from Hughes that I had met with before these gentlemen came into the picture, but yes, I did meet each of them individually.

Q. You met them individually?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Who were they?

A. There was William Macris, if I pronounce the name right, Ben Donatowski, J.D. Bath, Butch Jones, and the other man that didn't go on the mission, but we had cursory contact, one was Vic and I don't recall his last name. There was a couple of girls, no they weren't involved in the mission. Other guys would come and go, they were brief contacts, but I was never formally introduced, we shook hands, had a beer, went to dinner a few times.

Q. What was the purpose of the meetings with all of these people in California?

A. They were going to have their intricate parts, for an intelligence, reconnaissance operation, to confirm or deny the existence of live Americans. Bill or William Macris was to be the contact with Colonel Mike Eiland in cryptography, Ben Donatowski and J.D. themselves were former Delta members and J.D., I think was voted to be the tie-breaker, if there was some sort of problem.

Q. And your role was simply to go over there and deal with Vang Pao's people?

A. To get these gentlemen introduced to Vang Pao's people, get them happy, I come home, they do whatever they're going to do.

Q. When did you actually go over to Thailand?

A. I think we left about the 19th of October, 1981. I was admitted into Thailand 21 October, 1981 so counting the date line and loss of a day, we left on PAN AM flight number 1, so we probably left afternoon of the 19th, given the date line, and a whole day flying there.

Q. How specifically planned out was the mission before you left California?

A. Quite a bit. There was all kinds of meetings -- there was all kinds of communiques. There was stuff going on TRW M-4, a few things at Hughes, there was a lot of things going on. When I had officially said I would go, at no time was I to be separated from any member of the Delta force. There always had to be at least one member of Delta with me, and any other member with any of the other guys.

The only one that was ever gone by himself, and we followed him a couple of times was Bo, and he did in fact go to TRW M-4, we saw him walk right in the building, so there was no problem with that. Lance Trimmer, he was contacted in Montana to pick up a letter from Vang Pao's ranch.

Q. Who was the letter for?

A. It was General Vang Pao's identification and introduction to Lieutenant Colonel Souboun, S-o-u-b-o-u-n, I believe it is spelled.

Q. A guerilla?

A. Yes.

Q. And that was to be brought by you, by the team?

A. Whoever was going to meet with Souboun was to deliver the letter and it was in a sealed envelope, not just a regular lick'em, stick'em shut. It had a Laos seal on it.

Q. Can you tell us the names of all the people, Vang Pao's people in Thailand that you knew?

A. Gosh, if I could look at the book. There was Colonel Souboun, there was another strange name, okay, there was Sung torn -- I'll spell the last name, C-h-i-r-a-y-o-s. We called him Southern Chicago. There was a Colonel Soubom, S-o-u-b-o-m, in the pictures we worked with some of the guerillas, some of them are in here. I couldn't even begin to pronounce their names.

Q. These were all contacts that Vang Pao gave to you?

A. Right. He had already prearranged two people. There was a photograph of myself and a photograph of Bo Gritz that were given to General Vang Pao that he was going to have couriered to his people and it was either one or both of us were supposed to show up. Of course, everybody assumed it would be Bo, being the big Green Beret would be the man to go. It wasn't until the last moment that he was asked to stay behind, which really didn't cause suspicion. It concerned some of the Delta members more than it did me. I thought well, wait a minute. This guy's supposed to be going, at the airport. Matter of fact the day we were to leave, he got orders to stay behind and to help plan the actual rescue, which still bothers me.

Q. When was the actual rescue supposed to take place?

A. If there was a confirmation, the rescue was supposed to take place within 72 hours of the satellite burst confirming the existence of Americans in a particular camp. That's a 3-day launch period, if they could get in, confirm it within 72 hours, there was supposed to be a rescue.

Q. How long before the team was leaving California did Bo announce that he wasn't going?

A. The day.

Q. It was just that day?

A. As I recall, it was like I've been told I've got to stay behind and help finish the actual rescue team itself which made sense in that he was a Green Beret commander.

Q. Were there any practices or rehearsals of the reconnaissance mission, any stagings of it?

A. They had some, yeah, but I was never aware of them. I certainly didn't partake.

Q. You weren't involved?

A. No. not at all.

Q. The Delta members that you were describing, were these active Delta members or former Delta members?

A. Good question. As I recall, Jim said he retired. I think Ben still was active.

Q. Who's Jim?

A. Bath, J.D. Bath -- he uses Jim and Jeff so -- Mac, I think already was retired from service. However, they all did have green military cards. I think, well, there was a lot of them that could be phony. There was a lot of bogus from passports to military I.D,'s, to business cards, to you-name-it, so who knows what was real.

Q. What kind of equipment did you all take over there?

A. Who said we took any?

Q. Did you take any equipment?

A. Some equipment was brought over there -- high tech electronic, eavesdropping equipment, recording equipment, several compact and backpack type radios, a small, I wish I could describe it, almost like a TWX machine.

Q. I don't know what that is,

A. Like a teletype, similar to a teletype, only its pinpoint is like if you are reading braille. It was bumpy. You are not familiar?

Q. When you say it was brought over, who brought that stuff over?

A. It just showed up. It was part of the cargo to be brought.

Q. It just showed up in Bangkok?

A. It got there.

Q. Who actually left California to go to Bangkok?

A. There were four of us and there was supposed to be a six-man detail on that flight also who we never, throughout the entire flight, had contact to my knowledge with.

Q. Did you know who they were?

A. No, we had no idea. We knew that there was going to be six people on that plane that were involved for several reasons, one to make sure we weren't compromised, two to provide added intelligence and security support, and three to make sure that we got to where we were supposed to be going.

Q. Who were the four people in addition to you, who would?

A. Counting me it would be myself, Ben Donatowski, Bill Macris, and J.D. Bath, we were the only four from that flight.

Q. So Butch Johns didn't go?

A. Nor did Bo.

Q. And Vic?

A. Vic was just a business man.

Q. When you arrived in Thailand, did you go through customs?

A. Right. First, we went to Hong Kong, had about an hour or so layover. There was some contact made here.

Q. What was that like?

A. Hong Kong.

Q. Was there anything unusual about the contact?

A. Just that there was a discussion that merchandise that was on its way down that we couldn't carry with us was okay, was going to get there on time, and was going to be no problem.

Q. This was a discussion with customs?

A. No, no, in Hong Kong was a discussion with somebody that I was not privy to meet. As I recall his name was Silas Hong, an ICA representative. But, yes, we went through a kind of a customs when we arrived in Bangkok. There was some fear at first because part of this cargo that was handcarried tothe aircraft was electronic equipment and obviously if it was discovered, it would have been a violation of the Thai law.

Q. Was this a regular commercial airplane that you went on?

A. Yeah. PAN AM flight 1, yes.

Q. What happened, then you flew from Hong Kong to Bangkok?

A. To Bangkok.

Q. What happened when you got there?

A. First, there was a little concern. We split up. It's almost like we went through -- there wasn't that many. It's not like United States where everything's all high tech like. There was almost, when they took our passports and ran the numbers, no problem. They didn't even look at anything. Immediately got in separate vehicles and I think it was myself and J.D. went to the Rajah.

Q. Is that a hotel?

A. Yes. And then Ben and Mac went to the NaNa where I had previously stayed in June of '81.

Q. What was your understanding as to why you got through customs so easily?

A. That we had been expected, that it was obviously a government operation, and that our two countries were assisting the stuff needed in, and it needed to be brought in with the people that were going to use it.

Q. What was the first thing you did after arriving in Bangkok relative to the mission?

A. Well, we went to the Rajah and went to bed, got up the next day to have a meeting with Colonel Mike Eiland, and met with an American named Ken Vest at Gym World, and --

Q. What were those meetings about?

A. To confirm that certain weapons had arrived.

Q. Weapons that arrived with you?

A. No, no, no. They had the previous meeting in Hong Kong about.

Q. These were weapons that Bo had arranged to arrive in Bangkok from elsewhere?

A. I didn't say Bo, but the operation, yes.

Q. Someone connected to the operation?

A. Yes.

Q. Had arranged to have additional weapons?

A. Right.

Q. What kind of weapons did you have?

A. Armor light 180's.

Q. What are those?

A. Basic 223 caliber automatic, semi automatic weapon.

Q. And these were to carry on the mission?

A. Well, I don't know. They were weapons that someone was to use.

Q. Did you have meetings with any of Vang Pao's people?

A. Not in Bangkok, no.

Q. When did that happen?

A. We've jumped way ahead.

Q. Let's not jump way ahead then. What else happened in Bangkok before you left to go closer to the Laotian border?

A. Well, Mike Eiland came from the embassy, there was some discussions with Mac and I think it was Ben met with him and I think the next day J.D. and I left, went down and had our passports stamped that we were leaving the country and we flew up to Udorn.

Q. How did it come about you were going to go on the mission all of a sudden, on the reconnaissance mission?

A. Well, it didn't. I was still going to go and introduce them to Vang Pao's people up in the NKP, Nakhon Phanom and Nung Kai, right up on the border. So somewhere along the lines I was going to have to go up there and introduce them, which was not a problem, you know, just catch a flight back.

Q. But Vang Pao's people were still inside Thailand?

A. You have to understand, here you have the Mekong River. Here's Laos, and here's Thai, and here's people zig-zagged all up and down across the river, so they have refugee camps all along on the free side, so they do cross border, so I had obviously known all up to Nung Kai here that he had people staged all along here.

Q. So you got your passport stamped in the event you had to cross the river?

A. No, no, I got it stamped that I left Thailand.

Q. Why did you do that?

A. Because it was brought to our attention like from this day on you guys are out of Thailand, the whole world, if anything ever happens, you are not here. I didn't have a problem with that. What we needed to do, we needed to do so they stamped it, that we left on I think it was the 24th October, 1981.

Q. So in other words the purpose of that was to keep the secrecy of this?

A. Right and there's stamp that we left Thailand 24th October, 1981.

Q. Who arranged to have your passport stamped like that?

A. I have no idea who arranged it.

Q. Where did it get stamped?

A. It got stamped right there in an office at the airport as we were boarding the plane.

Q. To Udorn?

A. To Udorn, air base.

Q. And that's still in Thailand?

A. Northern Thailand.

Q. So you and J.D. went up there?

A. Yes.

Q. What happened when you got to Udorn?

A. In short we were met there. At first, I thought we got compromised. He apparently knew more than I did. He said no they are our escort. From there we got in a vehicle and were driven to NKP, which is on the border, on the river, and tried to find our various contacts.

Q. Did you have any success?

A. Oh yes.

Q. Who did you find?

A. The first contact was Southern Chicago.

Q. Again what was Southern Chicago's real name?

A. It's a bizarre spelling name. Chirayos Sungtorn or something like that. Anyway he's an intelligence agent, who spoke fluent English; discussed had there been any recent reports from Vang Pao's people of Americans and he pretty much confirmed, yes there was; but that area's too hostile; it could not be penetrated. That he himself had recently come across the river, but we were to go up and meet with Colonel Soubom and deliver this introductory letter and that Sungtorn wasn't aware if he was back or not. The only way that they were going to find out is, if they were going to find out, was to go up to Baneg Pang and see.

Q. How far was that from NKP?

A. I would say right in maybe 1-1/2 hours, something like that, slow ride.

Q. Why were you and J.D. the only one who went to Udorn and NKP?

A. Mike Eiland had made a comment and mentioned my name at this meeting and said that was hot, whatever that meant, and they said we'd better get him up to the northeast section or quadrant as soon as possible. If he's with you. They didn't acknowledge that I was even there, to Mike, and that's where Vang Pao's guerillas were so that's where I had to go. J.D. was the one who was picked to go there with me.

Q. Was there any problem with the guerillas recognizing you from the photographs that Vang Pao had supplied to them?

A. They knew who I was, in fact, one kid wrote Bo on a shirt, expecting I'm sure to see Bo and he didn't. But no, Colonel Soubom's wife apparently knew who I was and came out and gave me a hug and started talking saying, hi, how are you doing.

Q. So you went up to see Colonel?

A. We were looking for Colonel Soubom.

Q. Did you find him?

A. No, we found his wife. He was still in country, in Laos, not running cross border and coming back with the intelligence on POW camps. She had taken us on up to Nung Kai to a Monk monastery to where there was a contact point and the man there, you know, had said, no he's still over there. He should be back any day now.

Q. How were you traveling?

A. From Baneg Pang up we rode in one of their transit, old beat-up things -- you know, they didn't want to bring attention, cause there was road blocks every so many miles, so we just traveled in a regular beat-up, old bus.

Q. Who was taking you places?

A. Colonel Soubom's wife,

Q. So you weren't being transported around by the guerillas?

A. No, no, not there, there was no need to.

Q. So it was just Colonel Soubom's wife and you and J.D.?

A. And there was others that had gone with her to make sure she's okay.

Q. What happened to the six guys who were also on the airplane?

A. I have no idea. I don't even know who they are. To this day I don't know who they are.

Q. Did you ultimately catch up with Colonel Soubom?

A. Never.

Q. When did you first obtain sufficient intelligence information about the location of POW'S, for the decision to be made to go in for the reconnaissance mission?

A. Back in Dorman's office.

Q. What happened after you went up north with Soubom's wife?

A. We had met with a lieutenant colonel who had just recently gotten out of there, escaped a reeducation camp. We had met with him and a monk, discussed what was going on. And he had written a letter, the letter that's in there to bring back to the States. He confirmed there was still several active camps. Obviously, by then I believed there may be something to this. Maybe there is some people left behind.

Q. You were starting to change your opinion?

A. I still had my doubts. I said, well, maybe they're there because they want to be there. In the dope trade, it's big business, gun trade, whatever, but he had some interesting information to relate, very interesting.

Q. What was the information that he had?

A. He was in a reeducation camp, I don't know if it was 4, 5, or 6. The name's in the letter, I think.

Q. What was this man's name?

A. Kham Ouane, K-h-a-m, last name 0-u-a-n-e.

Q. He was the guy who had escaped?

A. From the reeducation, yes.

Q. Do you know if he was ever debriefed by the CIA?

A. Never.

Q. So what was the interesting information this refugee had?

A. That there was a lack of intelligence that he was able to bring back to Vang Pao's, him being a lieutenant colonel himself, that he would give the information to his superiors, which would have been some of Vang Pao's people, and that he had been cut off by agency personnel, Daniel Arnold was one of his agent contacts, who was one of the letters I did deliver, or mail to Daniel Arnold, that why the Americans had not gone in on previous information. He knew that there was previous operations that people had gone in, actually seen Americans being held, and nothing was ever done and there was some concern of why nothing was done.

Q. Did he indicate to you which camps specifically Americans had gone in to see and then nothing had been done?

A. I want to say camp 7, but without looking at his letter, because he went to several different camps and there were some camps that were way north, that he was sent to for reeducation purposes and apparently he went along with the thing, but the Americans were kept on one side, and he was never privy to actually have contact with them. But it was way north, way north of Sam Nuea.

Q. How did he know that Americans had been in to see the camps?

A. Since his escape, and some of the guerrillas had actually gone to these camps, throughout the whole area, because this was an area that Vang Pao's aid the CI had operations during the war and then we backed out, whichever ones got captured, they were sent to all these various camps. People had made contact and he had found out that there was confirmation long after he had escaped. There was other teams that went in and he would say this camp I was at, let's say camp 5 or 6, he would say send somebody there, there's Americans there and apparently they did, but nothing was ever done. He could never understand why the Americans wouldn't come in and get these men out. I mean he came back to tell them, I think it's in the letter. I escaped at such-and- such a date and I have returned.

Q. So was it based on his information that the reconnaissance mission -- well, let me just ask this. What was it that made the reconnaissance mission actually the final go?

A. Okay, One of the colonels not Soubom himself, but one of the colonels who had been working with Soubom had been returned, instructed the monk what was going on and he in turn told this Dwan colonel, like colonel, that there was two active camps on the other side of Dwan, and it was one of those mobile camps, and that there needed to be someone go in to see and so the plan was that someone would go and do that, certainly not me.

Q. How did it come about that it was you?

A. Well, we spent the night there, got up the next day,

Q. You and J.D.?

A. Yes. Went back down with the colonels wife and their little entourage,

Q. To NKP?

A. No, to Baneg Pang, and I'll jump ahead. What had happened is J.D. was going to go back down to make sure everything was set up.

Q. Go back down to where?

A. NKP -- have one of them or two of them come back up to see if they'd gotten all the medication, radio stuff was in place -- in other words, everything was set up. Out of the blue, comes an American which obviously is not out of the blue, he was apparently waiting for J.D. to leave, and J.D. departs, he has a picture and another picture and he says, well, he's not here, you're it, let's go. M.J.B, is who he called himself. Michael J. Baldwin. There were some discussions with Soubom's wife. Some of the guerrillas were there. You'd go down to the river bank and it was like there was an army packed. ln-other words, this was already arranged. They were waiting to take someone across.

Q. They being?

A. Vang Pao's people, they had come from that side over to this side and they were ready, let's go. I wouldn't say there was an argument, there was a conflict, like, wait a minute. I'd gone this far, went from Bangkok to here to here, and I say this has gotten to be a little ridiculous, and he says, look this man's not here.

Q. Who wasn't there?

A. Bo.

Q. Okay.

A. And I said this is ludicrous.

Q. In other words the guerrillas said we have pictures of you and Bo?

A. No, no, no,. M.J.B. Here's a picture and it's like, well, he's not here, so you're it. So in other words, if I wasn't there and Bo was, then Bo would be going.

Q. Was Barnes there -- who's M.J.B.?

A. Michael J. Baldwin, A.K.A. Jerry Daniels.

Q. Was he there?

A. Yeah, he was the one that was there with the guerrillas, as soon as J.D. left, he comes out.

Q. Where did J.D. -- J.D. went back to?

A. NKP.

Q. So it was you and Baldwin?

A. And the indigenous.

Q. How did you get convinced to go along? Did you get paid more money?

A. No, money was fine. His insistence, his disbelief.

Q. Whose disbelief?

A. Michael. His disbelief that there were any Americans behind, that this was the closest mobile site at that time, that they had to get to, within a matter of a few days otherwise they would be moved, back over Mu Gia, up to Nape, to Nhommarath, down to Mahaxay itself to where nobody could get to them.

Q. Who is Baldwin?

A. Michael J. Baldwin is Jerry Daniels, Jerry Barker Daniels, he was a CIA operator for 15 years. His immediate superior was Mike Eiland.

Q. Did you know Baldwin before that day that you met him?

A. In person, no.

Q. Why was he involved in this?

A. He had been Vang Pao's right-hand man for umpteen years. He was one of the few people from the company that he did trust and believe in, that voluntarily, assignment wise stayed behind after the war ended to continue to work with the Hmong where most of the agents said, good, give me a new duty station. He didn't, he stayed behind.

Q. He was still working for the CIA at that time?

A. Yes.

Q. Definitely not retired?

A. Oh heavens no.

Q. When you agreed to go into Laos, what was your understanding as to how far away the camp was?

A. According to them the zig-zag would have been 27 kilometers, which was too far. You see, they call them Haxay region, he was actually Mahaxay itself which is way out of the area and mobile camps were along here. When they said okay we are going to the Mahaxay region which you have to understand is when they say Mahaxay region, it's like saying San Bernardino, California, and saying we are going to go to the San Bernardino area and that could be up here and San Bernardino itself is located here.

He said the Mahaxay region, so what had occurred is the men that were involved here, permanent campwise were moved to work up on the mobile stuff, so we knew -- I shouldn't say we knew. The belief was that the Mahaxay region, which entails this, these men were from these camps, moved up to these temporary camps up here, along 1. They didn't know how long they were actually going to be there, but they knew they were only there a matter of days at each time, as they are brought in. So that's why they were so insistent, we've got to move them. We have got to move now. Soubom was still there, Colonel Soubom was still there.

Q. And your understanding was that the Americans were just doing hard labor there?

A. Were working there, but what they were working on I still don't know.

Q. So you agreed to go on the trip?

A. Yes.

Q. You and Baldwin?

A. Yes, and all the indigenous.

Q. How many?

A. We probably left 20 to 30 on one side and there was a whole group already on the other side.

Q. How many total do you think?

A. I have no idea, I would say 30 to 40, but at separate times, distance, that we had seen, and of course there were scouts that were way ahead of us, and way to the rear.

Q. How were you traveling?

A. Cross country on foot. Other than the little sampan across the river.

Q. Were people carrying backpacks?

A. Everybody had rucksacks, everybody -- there wasn't one person who didn't have some major cargo with them.

Q. Were you traveling just at night?

A. Mostly, we did some day traveling. There was an area that had to be crossed that was quite, for lack of a better word, hazardous, and that had to be done in the daytime, but other than that predominantly dusk. They knew where they were going.

Q. What were the hazardous areas, mountains or streams?

A. There was one area that was excessively swampy, infestation. There was a nipple on one side, what they called the nipple, and they had to find a way, a short way over the nipple.

Q. You said at some point J.D. went back to see whetherthe equipment was in order?

A. Right.

Q. Was it?

A. It was up there, everything and then some, was up there, at Baneg Pang. Everything that we needed, or anybody would need was there.

Q. So you had everything?

A. We had everything, and then some stuff that was either left from previous operations or was sent up by the embassy days before.

Q. So the equipment was being carried in the rucksacks?

A. Yes, and some of the radios were regular radio backpacks, there was no secret about that, I mean, everybody had something other than me of major heavy consequence.

Q. And everybody was armed?

A. Most everybody. You have got to understand, if you say you're armed, you went into a foreign country and you have a neutrality violations and you have an arms problem, I am not going to say that, but most people had guns.

Q. Apparently your book indicates you were carrying a Winchester shotgun?

A. I had a Wingmaster 870 in Cambodia, but not in Laos. That's right, it does say in the book, but that was Cambodia,

Q. How long was the trip until you got to a camp?

A. 2-1/2, 3 days max.

Q. And everyone's just kind of tromping along?

A. No, because there was fresh Vang Pao's people that would come back every now and then and replace other people, either they were forward scouts or rear scouts or point people. There was a constant movement of people. We had our cell group, that predominantly stuck together, but the external guerrillas were constantly changing.

Q. Were you sleeping at all?

A. Well, can we say something off the record, I'll admit to it but I want it definitely off the record.

MR. KRAVITZ: Sure.

(Discussion off the record.)

BY MR. KRAVITZ:

Q. Let's go back on the record. Okay, so you weren't sleeping a lot?

A. No.

Q. This may be a really obvious question, but how did you figure out that you had found what you were looking for?

A. One of the guerrillas had come back, told the basic translator that we were approaching one of the camps that had been discussed. Obviously you must understand my attitude is yeah, right.

Q. Let me ask you this. During the 2-1/2 days or 3 days that you were traveling through Laos, were there any problems?

A. There was one hamlet that we had to avoid obviously because I'm white, and Jerry was predominantly white. He had more sun than me, and there was some concern that they didn't want the hamlet people to see us, and, of course, they didn't want us to come in with any sort of new type boot tracks, obvious stuff. Other than we couldn't use various lotions and stuff for insect problems, other than that I wouldn't say any real problems. There was team work. They had team work. They were together people.

Q. So there were no ambushes?

A. Oh, heavens, no. No violence at all.

Q. They had the place scouted out perfectly?

A. Oh, yeah. I felt safer there than going to east L.A. at night, but they knew what they were doing. There was times we would whisper, and they would tell us to shut up for a few minutes, but no, there was never any firing of any weapons by us.

Q. I interrupted you before. You were telling us that at some point somebody came and told you that you were approaching?

A. Yeah, we are on a knoll. We are going down a knoll, we are going up another knoll, and then on top of the other knoll was basically looking into a small valley, a clearing that was one of the mobile camps.

Q. So what happened when you got that information what time of day was it?

A. Oh, I would imagine, we were probably earlyish afternoon, 1 to 2, I didn't have any watches. I left my dogtag on the bank, early afternoon to mid afternoon.

Q. During the 3 days or 2-1/2 days of travel, was there any communication back to Thailand?

A. Okay, there was something that had gone on, on one of the radios that I was not privy to. They would communicate, you are a lawyer and I'm trying to explain it. The guerrillas could communicate with their apparatus. There was some apparatus that I never actually saw used, but was told that they were sending back versed information, giving out exact grid coordinates, constant compass locations, weather reports, I remember, because they had written down on certain days, certain times, cloud structure was like, what the ground was like, to me silly stuff, what's unimportant, to me was unimportant, but there was some communication going back to whoever, I do not know.

Q. How about Baldwin, was he communicating?

A. He would go with the one guerilla that's pictured in there and they would do whatever they would do, quite a bit away from me. I was not privy to any communications.

Q. Do you know if Baldwin was communicating with CIA people back in Thailand?

A. I don't know, he was not talkative about a whole lot, but there was some communication going on, and that's about all I know.

Q. What happened when you got the information that just over the next knoll was one of the mobile camps?

A. Basically we had stopped for a while. They wanted to set up a security perimeter. It took them a few minutes to get that done. We had come up on a knoll and started unpacking all the apparatus and then looked down and there in fact was, cut basically in a jungle clearing, a detainee camp.

Q. You could see it from the knoll?

A. Yeah, when you're sitting up on the knoll and we're looking down, you could see a clear cut area with a road going back off into under the tundra, under the brush.

Q. How far away was the knoll?

A. His measurements because he had a thing that was taking measurements, he estimated it.

Q. Who's he?

A. Jerry or Mike, whatever you want to call him now. About 600 foot from the base here in. From here down to the base, I would guess maybe 200 feet, maybe.

Q. So, in other words, 200 feet from the top of the knoll to the base of the knoll and then another 600 feet from the base of the knoll to the cutout location.

A. I guessed it at 600 directly, but he had some thing that would give him an accurate measurement.

Q. If you could see the detainee camp from the top of the knoll, why were you putting up all of your stuff at the top of the knoll?

A. We weren't going to get any closer than that, that was as close as we were going to get.

Q. Weren't you afraid they'd be able to see you?

A. Oh, heavens no, if you saw the place. You're talking thick as a thicket. You could look out, but if I was looking up at a Mountainside and I see nothing but all jungle, that's all I'm going to see is jungle.

Q. What did this area look like?

A. It was triangular in shape.

Q. Let's just take a piece of paper and have it marked as an exhibit and have you draw it for us?

(The document referred to was marked Barnes Exhibit No. 16 for identification.)

THE WITNESS: As you're looking down it's triangular in shape, well, the DIA has one of these I drew for them, and these are towers that aren't much higher than the fencing. The fencing here consisted of what looked like pieces of wood, and bamboo, cheap.

BY MR. KRAVITZ:

Q. And this is cut out right in the middle of the jungle?

A. Yeah, but it was a fairly large clearing, and here, somewhere around this general area, you would see a road that went right back up into the jungle, and in between that you would see like rows of farming.

Q. Rows of what?

A. For cultivation, you know, mounds of, you know, like dirt. As I recall looking down on this side there was a building.

Q. Why don't you write building in there?

(The witness complied.)

THE WITNESS: I think on this side there was a large, when it would rained the tin stuff would empty into this big, like --

MR. TAYLOR: Cistern?

THE WITNESS: Yes, There was holes that were dug along and there were several others into the ground that had dirt piled up around them and there was like a top that would sit down on top of them. I think on this side, it looked like it was a generating for electricity and stuff. I mean this is not to scale, but throughout the whole thing you could see there was armed NVA regulars guarding the people, the LP's that were working here.

From one side of the camp to another side of the camp, there was two individuals that were armed and there was two Caucasians that were being escorted from one side to the next, and what had happened is, when we were looking down, one of them had gotten struck in the butt, the rifle had gone there and he had hit him with the butt into the elbow and apparently he had told to Mike or Jerry whatever you want to refer to him as, oh shit, and there was a minor name calling back and forth, and that's when he said, oh, my God, we did leave them behind, they're speaking American. I mean, that's American English. Seeing that they were, in fact, dirty white, you know, I cried, I mean, I really did. It was a very upsetting situation, and I said, I can't believe we would leave them behind. His major concern right then was to go ahead and get photographic intelligence. He was setting up.

BY MR. KRAVITZ:

Q. Let me interrupt you for a second. You guys were looking at all this from the knoll?

A. Mm.

Q. How many people were up at the top of the knoll at this point?

A. That were actually with us?

Q. You and Baldwin and who else?

A. I guess there was seven with us, not to mess that up, and as we were looking down we had a perimeter of people all around us. We had who knows how many people back here so what they had done is we are looking down. This whole area was secured and there was about seven to nine actually right there with us and one of them had said this is what we've been telling you people about year, after year, after year, and you've done nothing.

And their attitude was let's hit the camp, and they were heavily armed, and there was probably enough of them, but like he was telling me, how do you think we're going to get back. So we go in and we get these two people. How do you think we are going to get them in the condition they're in, all the way back. It's impossible, we're here just to prove it. He goes well. It was basic, like, there was an argument between them and Jerry, like we've told you, you've seen them, now do something. They were probably more angry at us for not doing anything and that's why they were so adamant about let's do it now.

Q. Were you viewing this simply with a naked eye?

A. Oh, heavens no.

Q. What did you have?

A. We had one camera that had a very long lens that had a tripod at the end that you had to set down and it was swivelling, you could take as many pictures as you want, as fast as you could take them. There was no rewind, it was all automatic. As I recall, it was almost like you couldn't hear anything as soon as you would take it. It was a very minor motor, no it was almost deaf to the ear. There was binoculars with one eye, there were small tripod-like telescopes the kids get at Sears to look at the moon and stuff.

There was a thing on them that would slant for reflection so if you are up looking and the sunlight hit it, it would not reflect so when you'd look you'd have to look at a very down angle. The cameras, several with long distance, but one main one that was being used and he said, here, reload as fast as you can, keep taking pictures, change the ASA to this setting, change it to that setting, use this film. There were so many different kinds of film.

Q. Did you take pictures of the NVA?

A. Everything here was taken care of.

Q. Who was taking pictures?

A. Both of us.

Q. Out of separate cameras?

A. Right. And then he wanted

Q. Who is he?

A. Jerry, Michael, wanted to get more electronic. He was setting up more of a parabolic apparatus. It was almost, he had one that was almost like a satellite dish that was coned that had a battery pack and you could tune it in and you could raise the volume and it was like you could almost shoot, and if I just want to hear one person I could channel in on that one person, or the two closest to him.

Q. Was it a special listening device?

A. Excellent, a super little apparatus.

Q. Who was operating the listening device?

A. He had started it. I tried because he wanted to get more pictures with another camera. I tried.

Q. Did you have headphones on?

A. Uh. Just like a walkman.

Q. And you had sets for both you and Baldwin?

A. There was two different types of a parabolic-type apparatus. He called them parabolic mirrors, but one you set up -- it looks like a miniature satellite dish and you can look through a spotter on it and line it up. One was a pointer that you would point with your own eyes, like looking through a rifle scope and it was all recorded, they were on tape recordings, everything was recorded, even our conversation back and forth, oh, my God, we did leave them here, and Mike started to cry, I don't believe this.

Q. How long were you observing the camp -- actually, let me go back. How big is this camp, how many feet?

A. This is only an estimation. I would say 60 yards, by maybe 40, by 60 maximum.

Q. Just for the record, why don't you write in 60 yards, 60 yards, 40 yards,

(The witness complied.)

BY MR. KRAVITZ:

Q. Just so it's clear, you've drawn a triangle in Exhibit No. 16 and you have the base of the triangle, 40 yards maximum, and then the two sides of the triangle, 60 yards maximum, correct?

A. Correct. And that's just a guess from the distance that we were at.

Q. How long were you looking at the camp before you saw the two Caucasian prisoners?

A. As we were actually tuning in and looking. A matter of minutes, literally.

Q. I am sorry, I didn't hear you sir?

A. A matter of minutes before these two guys were being escorted out of our sight.

Q. Which direction, in the drawing -- which direction were you at?

A. We would have been up here, looking down from here, this way.

Q. Why don't you just draw an arrow pointing there, and why don't you write knoll or something like that?

(The witness complied.)

BY MR. KRAVITZ:

Q. You've written US-ISA team?

A. On knoll.

Q. Before you saw the two white people being escorted, had you seen anyone else inside the camp?

A. Just peasants.

Q. What were they doing?

A. Well, these out here were obviously fixing their little gardens. The ones by the building, there was people standing on the building, not really doing much of anything They were armed, uniformed, NVA people, regulars, but they weren't white, and they were small. That's why we called them little people.

Q. Had you or Baldwin been able to hear any conversation?

A. He had. He knew how to work the apparatus whereas I did not.

Q. But he was telling you what he was listening to?

A. Right and when we had both seen these --

Q. Before the people, white people walked into your sight had he heard any other conversation?

A. I think just some brief mention about farming that little garden.

Q. So within minutes of the time that you set up your surveillance you saw the two white men?

A. Well, we didn't totally get it set up, but we were setting up the camera equipment, and the parabolic apparatus, and there was two Caucasians that were walking under two armed guards from one end to the next.

Q. Were they handcuffed?

A. It looked like -- their feet looked like they might have had, not a shackle, but some sort of like a stick, and then a tie around.

Q. Like a yoke almost?

A. They were walking, you know, shuffling, but no, their arms were totally free.

Q. And they were being escorted for how long a distance?

A. Oh, I would say at least a third of a football field, maybe less.

Q. How long a time period did you have these two men in your sight?

A. Probably less than 2 minutes, less than 2 minutes easy.

Q. More than a minute?

A. Could have been, but you've got to understand the adrenaline is going on.

Q. Who saw them first?

A. The guerrillas had pointed them out.

Q. And then you, looking through the binoculars?

A. We could see through the naked eye that there was some movement, but we certainly could not tell whether they were white at that time.

Q. How were you able to tell that they were white?

A. As soon as we looked through not only the telescope, but the binoculars and the camera as we telephotoed it in, it was obvious.

Q. What did the two people look like?

A. Beat up old dirty men, one balding, faces really, the cheek bones were protruding.

Q. Just for the record the arrow that you've drawn on Exhibit 16 is the direction that the prisoners were being escorted in?

A. Yes.

Q. So from your vantage point, down in the lower left- hand corner of this diagram you would be seeing a profile view of these guys?

A. Correct, exactly.

Q. Were you able to see one better than the other?

A. The one who got hit in the elbow as he turned to yell at the guard, yeah. They just both looked like tired, beat-up men.

Q. Did they have facial hair?

A. 6 to 8 days maybe. You've got to understand, they were filthy, filthy. The pajamas they were wearing were filthy. Everything about them was filthy.

Q. How old did they appear?

A. They looked late thirties, early forties.

Q. How would you describe their build?

A. Slim, depressive looking. It's almost like they were told to look down like this, always keep their heads down. Until he got hit. The worst condition of a living human that was still alive that I've ever seen and I've been in a lot of places and I've never seen anybody that looks physically in that bad a condition, that was alive. It was sad.

Q. So tell us again, exactly what happened while you were watching, one of them got hit?

A. One of the guys as he was walking apparently had said something or was saying or maybe wasn't walking fast enough, I don't know. One of the guards took the butt of the rifle and smacked him in the elbow. He in turn turned around and said something, and as he turned, that's when Mike said they're Americans.

Q. He heard what the guy said?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he tell you what the man said?

A. Something like oh, shit, you mother -- something, it was kind of comical. He says, I know they're Americans. There's no other person that's going to say that but us. But, you know, who knows.

Q. You were not able to hear anything?

A. I tried. I couldn't really hear. I mean you could hear stuff, but the tuning and everything. I could not and he was just, get more pictures, get more pictures.

Q. So you were then just taking as many pictures as you could?

A. Constantly.

Q. How many pictures did you take?

A. I would estimate no less than 400.

Q. In a minute?

A. Oh. no, no, it took several minutes.

Q. These guys were only out for?

A. Not 400 of them.

Q. How many pictures of the prisoners?

A. Gosh, probably, let's see the rolls were 36, maybe actually 20 some of them.

Q. And then they disappeared, where?

A. They went out of sight. There was, I want to call, I don't want to call it an out-house, but it was like a generating place, we could see there was power hooked up, and I assume it was an out-house in there, and they were out of sight.

Q. And you took 400 photographs?

A. At least.

Q. With what kind of a camera?

A. I believe it was an F4 Nikon on one. There was another one that had no names that was all black, and there was one that was fairly used and I think it had Olympia, or Olympus, or something like that.

Q. So you were using three different cameras?

A. Several different cameras.

Q. How about Baldwin?

A. He had several of his own, even the guerrillas had some.

Q. So Baldwin was taking photographs as well?

A. Right. After voice contact ended and it was recorded, it was in fact recorded, he went on to another camera. He even started taking down, he had a piece of paper, that had just like a checkboard and what he was doing was sizing up areas and he was taking measurements of the distance from here to here, the distance from here to here. In other words, he was trying to plan as quickly and as rapidly as possible. Well, if this tower gets taken out, and this tower, a helicopter can land here, that's hard ground, you know what I'm saying. He was military mind.

Q. Was there a tower at each corner of the triangle?

A. All three of them, there was a tower. It was barely over the fencing though. It was not that high.

Q. Were there armed guards in the towers?

A. Mm. You could visibly see them with no problem at all.

Q. Were all these cameras and the audio and tape recording equipment, was it provided by the activity?

A. Of course and I assume some of it was donated by other facilities --

Q. Such as?

A. Hughes, Litton, you know, but yeah, it was all state-of-art equipment, there was nothing second-class about any of it. It was all top notch stuff.

Q. Were any of the guerrillas who were with you, you said they were taking photographs?

A. Some of them were taking photographs, too.

Q. Do you have any idea where those photographs would be?

A. No, you'd have to ask some of them, I mean we left the cameras with them. I didn't take anything home.

Q. What can you tell us to help us ask some of them? Do you have any idea?

A. Some of them that are still alive, their pictures in the book. I'd go to Baneg Pang, find Soubom, Soubom's wife, that lieutenant colonel. I'd find everybody that was there.

Q. That would know who those --

A. Absolutely.

Q. Who those guerrillas were?

A. Absolutely, you've got that many guerrillas you are not going to convince me today, in '92, that every single guerilla is dead, unless they were involved in continued cross-border operations and were captured and killed, but there's got to be 3 or 4 still alive today. They were young people, 15, 19.

Q. Have you ever gone back since 1981 to try to find any of these people?

A. Not down there, never.

Q. Do you know if anyone else has?

A. Mm. Several people.

Q. Has anyone had any luck at finding any of these photographs?

A. I don't think they went to look for the photographs. They just went to look for some of the guerrillas.

Q. Has anyone had any luck finding any of the guerrillas?

A. I think an L.A. Times guy said he did.

Q. Who's that?

A. Rick Myer, but I don't believe him.

Q. Anybody else?

A. Not that I'm aware of.

Q. How long were you guys on the knoll -- before I ask this I take it Baldwin resisted the guerrillas' question that you go in and take the camp now?

A. I would say he thought about it for a minute. There was a brief discussion if he would send a burst for an immediate rescue, how long would it take them to get there; and it was out of the question. I mean, if you're going to hit that place, you are going to have to hit it, hard fast and get out hard and fast, because they had antennas so they had communication and I agree. If you hit, and who knows who's in the holes in these other ones, and I have no idea.

But let's say you rescue these guys, these guerrillas, there's no doubt, all the NVA we saw, there's no doubt these guerrillas could have taken them out, surprised them, I'm convinced of that. But so you get them, and then he did make some -- he says how are you going to get two decrepit men back to the Mekong River, impossible, I made a comment, I said, well, you know if they do that, and you can't get them back alive, then chop off one of their hands and then you have a fingerprint to bring back, granted the guy's dead, but here's his hand, here's his print, now tell me who he is. As cold as that may sound, you try to think what alternative you can do to prove there's Americans living there. There was comments made by some of the guerrillas to hang around because there's others that are on a work detail. They said, can you wait, wait, there will be others, and black men coming back. They are on a work detail.

Q. Others coming back at the end of a day?

A. Right.

Q. You've described the armed guards outside the camp as NVA?

A. They had regular, khaki, what do you call those hats you see them wearing -- African-type, the regular. They were not clean, but they were regular uniforms, they were not dressed in guerilla guard like our guerrillas were.

Q. There weren't Pathet Lao?

A. No. they were Vietnamese, no if's, ands, or buts. They were NVA regulars.

Q. So your conclusion was that these were prisoners of Vietnam?

A. Well, it was they were prisoners of Laos being held by Vietnamese, yeah, I mean I was skeptical that, well, maybe they are operatives that got caught in illegal operations before, but I think one's mind tends to, I don't want to believe this, and you try to think of well, maybe this is what happened, I mean, who knows? But once you analyze all the facts and the data you realize, yeah, they were men who were left behind, no doubt about it. No doubt.

Q. How long were you there before you left?

A. I think the full time that we actually were there was 40, 45 minutes, max.

Q. Did you see any people inside the actual camp other than the two prisoners and the two armed guards?

A. There were some peasants, but we didn't really pay any attention, I didn't.

Q. So you,left before the laborers came back?

A. Yes. You mean the work detail?

Q. Right.

A. Oh yeah.

Q. Why was the decision made to leave so soon, without staying longer, to get a sense of how many prisoners there were?

A. It was irrelevant. We said they're there, we need to get the information back, and we need to get the rescue team jumping, and I think he probably had -- let's go ahead. I mean there were discussions with the translators about should we hit, should we not hit, should we not go ahead and send a burst back, go ahead and send a full message and ask for help now, Certainly Udorn had the aircraft, it would only take 14 minutes for a fly over.

Q. How many miles from the Thailand border was this camp?

A. The way we went because we zigzagged, if you went as the crow flies, I'll bet we weren't, in kilometers versus miles, less than 20 miles, much less.

Q. What was done with the film and the tape recording before you started back?

A. We had divided it up. We had especially -- special, I don't want to call them security bags, but bags to put these things in. He had a bag to put in the tapes.

Q. Just so the record is clear, he again is?

A. Baldwin. He had a bag for the film. We divided the film up.

Q. Just between the two of you?

A. Yes, I had a sealed bag that they were put in that would protect them from water and fire. I mean it was a special little bag that was obviously made to protect confidential documents. He took his to report to the U.S. Embassy. He said I'm going to get these down to Udorn, Ubon, catch a flight, get to the embassy. You know your instructions, you take care of this, and I said okay. To me, we were in a rush obviously to get back, which we did, but we came back a lot further south than we went in.

Q. Why was that?

A. I can only assume as -- like I said, we zigzagged, sometime we might go 3 or 4 hours this way, and then also we might go 1 hour this way, and then 10 minutes this way, and it seems like we were just going all over the place, and I think it was probably for security reasons, but when we came back across, it was like way south of Baneg Pang, way south.

Q. You all stayed together the whole way back?

A. The guerrillas. There were a lot of guerrillas that stayed. We left the equipment. We didn't bring back the equipment. All the electronics, the radios, the cameras, we just took back the actual evidence that we needed.

Q. Was that just so it would be easier to get back?

A. No, I think it was to leave for them. I mean they were carrying the stuff. I wasn't carrying anything heavy.

Q. Who did you go back with?

A. With Jerry.

Q. Just the two of you?

A. No we had our guerilla team, but we didn't have the full force at all.

Q. So the equipment was just basically going to be donated to the guerrillas?

A. Yes, that's the right word, yes. We certainly didn't need it.

Q. You weren't afraid that it would just be left at the knoll?

A. Oh, no, the knoll was going to be sanitized. He had told them to secure the area, no if's, ands, or buts. Butthat was one of the things that they had been requesting is new high tech stuff.

Q. Oh, I see.

A. And they got it, I'm telling you. This is the best stuff I've ever seen. I've never seen anything like it tothis day. It's good stuff.

Q. How long did it take you to get back?

A. It seemed like it took us longer, I'd say it took more like 3, 3-1/2, but there again it might have only been 2-1/2 actual travel days or 2 days.

Q. And again, it was an uneventful trip in that sense?

A. No problems, none.

Q. So you are carrying in your safe bag several hundred photographs?

A. Well, the rolls. Not hundreds of the rolls, but if you accumulate the 36, there was several hundred photos in there.

Q. Did you have the tape recording?

A. He took that in his bag because he wanted that to go to the embassy. He was going to report directly to the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok.

Q. You referred to Baldwin telling you, well, Scott, you know your instructions. What were your instructions?

A. To mail them to 1705 Fox Run Court, Vienna, Virginia, Daniel C. Arnold. He said there's no way that you can carry out of the country. You don't want to get caught with it, mail it. The postal place which I knew of was secured and safe.

Q. Who had given you that instruction?

A. They were in the packet of instructions that we all had carried. Everybody had a packet of instructions.

Q. Carried from where?

A. We brought it with us from the United States. Each of us had our name on a packet of instructions in the event of open and these were in the event of.

Q. But you had told us that you weren't supposed to be going into Laos until 5 minutes before you went. How could that have been in your instructions?

A. Well, see they had the -- in the event of -- this is what this is. Everybody had their own little things. Who knows what was going to happen, so it was obvious they knew Bo wasn't coming. Bo was staying back in the United States, so Stateside and in the embassy knew certain things, so in the event of, open, and I had known who Arnold was. Not that I didn't open the envelope, but in the event of.

Q. The envelope said what -- in the event that you end up going and you have photographs?

A. Any confirmation forward on to this address to this address and I did.

Q. And this was in your package?

A. Along with other information.

Q. Even though your deal was, you were just supposed to go up, to go up there and introduce these people?

A. Of course, every package could have said the same thing, I wouldn't know I've never seen the other packages. It could have been every single one said the exact same thing and they just put your name, you know, on the heading.

Q. You've mentioned a rescue force that was kind of standing by?

A. Right. I was told that they had Moberg being the pilot.

Q. Where were they?

A. One was supposed to be at Ubon and the other was supposed to be coordinated out of NKP.

Q. And they were there while you were in Laos?

A. They were supposed to be in place by the time we even got up to NKP.

Q. How many people were involved in the rescue forces?

A. I have no idea.

Q. Did you know anyone other than Moberg?

A. No.

Q. Was there more than one helicopter involved?

A. Oh heavens yes, but Moberg was supposed to be the actual one that would go in and pull any of them out to where they would have a live body because all they needed was one live body, that would do it.

Q. Let me just ask you a question, if you know, if it was the government's theory that they had to rely on an unofficial group to do this reconnaissance in order to prevent any kind of embarrassing incident, why would they have an active CIA agent like Baldwin be the one to go over there?

A. Well, I think you have to look at it that the Hmong would not go over there with anybody they did not trust or believe in and that Vang Pao had a clearing with. Vang Pao, if you don't know, Jerry was like a son to Vang Pao. There was no closer individual other than his own children that was close as Jerry was.

Q. Just so the record is completely clear. We have been using interchangeably Jerry Daniels and Michael Baldwin --

A. And Michael J. Baldwin are one and the same individual.

Q. I just wanted to say that one time so there's no question. So the answer to the question of why they would use Baldwin, an active CIA agent, is that it was more important to have someone who was solid with Vang Pao than it was to have someone who had no connection to the agency?

A. Vang Pao, even though Vang Pao knew that he continued working for the company, that they were blood friends. Jerry's activities, he was still helping. In other words, he was doing the best he can to help Vang Pao's people. That's why he was assigned to the refugee project. You know, he was busting his ass to help the Hmong. He didn't care, he could have gotten a promotion and transferred to all the kinds of other countries, and he didn't take that. He stayed behind. He was that loyal to the Hmong. He was a very dedicated person. You've never seen a man that was so in love with the people.

Q. Where was this in the event envelope during the trip?

A. Where did I have it at? I had it in that little safety pouch that I carried around my waist. We called it a boogey bag.

Q. Why did you bring that into Laos with you?

A. I wasn't going to go anywhere without it.

Q. Well, presumably it had the name of CIA agents, right?

A. Everybody knew who Daniel Arnold was. Everybody knew who Jerry was. They were not unknown names on both sides of the border, so if I got caught with it, yeah, I could be tried, and Convicted, and shot as a spy, me.

Q. In light of that, why would you bring it across with you?

A. I wasn't going to leave anything in Thailand, nothing. I left my dogtags and that was it. Everything else I brought with me.

Q. Why would you rather be walking around Laos on a secret mission with the name and address of a known CIA agent than leave it in Thailand?

A. Because if I got captured, there's no doubt in my mind I'm going to die, and if I'm going to die I want someone to know, my children, Dad died here, this is what happened to him. I don't want it secret that something happened to me. I am not going to leave anything behind. My passport was with me. I didn't care what they thought. They didn't know I had it.

Q. Who is they?

A. Well, the guys at NKP. The little people didn't know, I mean, nobody looked into my bag. I took stuff with me I wasn't supposed to have with me, and I knew that, but I'm not going to let my ass get uncovered.

Q. So you weren't supposed to take the in the event of envelope?

A. No, mm. Everything, the only thing they made me take off was my dogtags and that they did make me take off and leave.

Q. Who are they?

A. Vang Pao's people right there on the border. They took them off my neck, I said, okay, here they're yours. I'll get them on the way back. But nobody would look in my boogey bags. Those were Jerry's and my own, for us to see only.

Q. What happened when you got back to the river?

A. We came back, Jerry immediately had transportation and he went to the air base to get down to Bangkok. I took my transportation and went down to NKP, walked into the NKP hotel, and up to the room, and there three of them were standing, having some discussion, pissed off as hell.

Q. Three of who?

A. Mac, J.D. and Ben and there was an argument, He said

Q. Who's he?

A. Mac. He was the one that pretty much talked about the codes. He said Bo Gritz has been fired. Mike Eiland's now in charge. I said, okay, hold everything. They're there. We've seen them. We have eye-witnessed them, you know, we have the documents, et cetera, et cetera. He said no, you don't understand. Things have changed. The helicopter's been grounded. I think Moberg was transferred to Singapore or something.

So in other words while we were gone, a lot of other things had transpired unbeknownst to us, or at least unbeknownst to me. We got in an argument. He said if merchandise confirmed, then liquidate, the little code thing. I said, well, wait a minute.

Q. He said what?

A. He said if merchandise confirmed then liquidate, and I knew merchandise was the code word for living prisoners of war; liquidate, the plausible term for selective assassination. I said wait a minute, are you reading that right, are we hearing this right?

Q. Who said that to you?

A. Mac. He said if merchandise confirmed then liquidate. He said this is an assassination order and they are to be killed, whoever they are. I said I want no part of this.

Q. Did Mac say where the order came from?

A. They came over the telex that we used and he had it there. I actually saw it.

Q. Did the telex message say where the message was coming from?

A. It had a bunch of numbers and letters, DOE frstal com center Washington, D.C.

Q. Frstal?

A. F-r-s-t-a-l, something to that effect. HQ frstal, DOE, dah, dah, dah, and then he deciphered the code, you know, I mean I saw it, I don't know, I can only believe him, what he was telling me.

Q. This is Mac?

A. I argued about it, I said I want no part of this. He pulled his arm back and smacked me right in the head.

Q. So your understanding was that from Mac was that the order was that you were to go back into Laos --

A. Not me, that if the merchandise was confirmed --

Q. Let me finish the question. Your understanding was that the group, or your mission, would be to go back into Laos, not necessarily you specifically, but the mission of your group, of the activity group would be to back into Laos and assassinate the live Americans?

A. That is correct.

Q. Okay, so you were told that by Mac?

A. Correct.

Q. And you said you didn't want any part of it?

A. Correct.

Q. Then what happened?

A. He smacked me square in the head and knocked me to the ground.

Q. Mac did?

A. Yeah.

Q. With any weapon?

A. No, one big fist. Like hitting a brick wall, I mean, literally -- I had a thump right here in the middle of my forehead. He smacked me good.

Q. What happened to the film?

A. It was mailed. I had mailed it.

Q. You had already mailed it?

A. Oh yeah. I stopped off at the P.O. right there, maybe a mile out of town.

Q. So you mailed the film before you went back to meet with Mac?

A. Absolutely. I wasn't going to get caught with anything.

Q. You mailed the film to whom?

A. Daniel C. Arnold, 1705 Fox Run Court, Vienna, Virginia.

Q. How big a package was it?

A. It was probably -- if you look at this black binder wrapped up, about that size.

Q. Did it have a letter in it?

A. It had a letter taped on the outside addressing itto Daniel C. Arnold, an envelope.

Q. I see, a letter from you?

A. Right. I send him a correspondence.

Q. What did the correspondence say?

A. Here it is, enclosed. I'll be bringing back letters from colonel, whatever his name is, from the reeducation camp, and I'll call you when I get back to the States, which I did.

Q. And included in that package were pictures of the white prisoners?

A. Rolls of film.

Q. Including pictures?

A. Including pictures of these two men in Laos.

Q. And that was mailed at a post office?

A. It was a military postal place that I had already known about.

Q. American military?

A. No, no, Thai. It was all Thai military people there.

Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that it was properly mailed, I mean properly delivered to the post office there?

A. I delivered it.

Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that it was properly delivered?

A. Oh, to the States, no. I am convinced it was delivered. I was told after the fact at the '86 hearing that Daniel did get a package from me, but he said, I don't recall the film. You'd have to go and ask him.

Q. Let's go back to your meeting with Mac. You said he smacked you in the head, you fell to the ground?

A. Yes.

Q. Then what happened?

A. I got up with the help of I think it was Ben or J.D., and said I'm out of here. Mac said, don't let him leave the country. Take him to the U.S. Embassy for debriefing, don't let him out of your sight. I went to my room and basically was going to get some money and get out of there. I grabbed my PA.

Q. What's a PA?

A. MY PAN AM ticket. And J.D. says, look, just cool down, calm down, we don't want this thing to get out of hand, the operation's not over. I said, in so many languages, as far as I'm concerned it's finished. That guy's nuts. I said let's go.

Q. Did you go to the embassy for debriefing?

A. No. He dropped me off literally in front. He says I can legally and honestly say I escorted you down to the embassy. I let you out right in front of the embassy. My suggestion to you is you disappear and never talk, never say a word ever again.

(Discussion off the record.)

MR. KRAVITZ: We're back on the record,